Times row over new music

[vinteuil]

And I still don’t know what a dangling participle is.

... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangling_modifier

[french frank]

At the end of the article he does have a view which I agree with entirely. “Radio 3’s biggest weakness is very different. It plays almost no part in classical music’s biggest challenge: enticing youngsters with no exposure to symphonic or operatic music. Where are its youth-orientated programmes?”

I think we've gone beyond the stage where Radio 3 can cope with that: it's a BBC responsibility.

The reason why the teens 'n' twenties (give a few, take a few) listen to Radio 1 is because it's for them, targeted on them, tailored for them, their station. How much of Radio 3 would have to be 'youth-orientated programmes' to persuade them to switch over from R1 or whichever station they listen to for 'youth-orientated programmes' which give them 'exposure to symphonic or operatic music'? It's the same for children (but one can try): what age? young children have to be guided by their by parents. If the parents are into classical music the children will get that exposure anyway; if the parents aren't into classical music they won't guide them over to Radio 3.

The Ten Pieces project is fine but a drop in the ocean whose lasting impact will be questionable.

[Serial_Apologist]

... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangling_modifier

The "I saw a trailer peeking through the window" example reminds me now of my request to my mother for me to be allowed to leave the breakfast table, so as to watch my father making his way to work: "Please Mummy can I see Daddy go through the window?" This went into my "Book of Sayings".

[LeMartinPecheur]

How about the Rite of Spring backwards?

The puzzle spot in Essential Classics next week... probably

[MrGongGong]

How about the Rite of Spring backwards?

OK

[cloughie]

OK

I think that's a bit of a Mickey Mouse solution!

[ahinton]

And those who put forward such notions in the first place are usually of the kind that one might be inclined to describe as the "right" offspring, naturally...

[Richard Tarleton]

Good letter in today's Times, ff

[Zucchini]

Stephen Hall, Glos that was in my paper yesterday? Sensible, I thought

[french frank]

Good letter in today's Times, ff

Yes, they were quick off the mark.

It's worth giving a bit of background to this. When FoR3 started we had about 30 members of the BBC messageboard community. An early survey of views asked them if they supported a children's programme being on Radio 3, and they were virtually unanimous in saying, Yes. What they didn't like was the BBC resorting to the general ploy of using presenters who were 'popular'/well-known - in this case to children. This could be useful IF the individuals have any knowledge or interest in classical music: those from Blue Peter, and then CBBC, clearly hadn't. If anything, the classical pieces came over, in contrast to more 'child-friendly' pieces, as being rather boring with little interesting information added.

But the two points I dug out seem in any case to drive a couple of nails in the coffin: that Radio 3 admitted when Making Tracks was axed that too few Radio 3 listeners had children of the appropriate age to guide their children over to Radio 3 (which I took to be code that it had too few listeners of the target age). This tied up with Radio 4 dropping children's programmes. The Radio 4 controller said that it hadn't worked and that it sometimes registered ‘zero listeners from its target four-to-14 age range’ (partly for the same reason, perhaps, since the average age of the Radio 4 audience is, as I remember, in the low 50s). A campaigner for children's radio also said that 'hiding children's radio within adult-focused formats is the wrong way to go and the BBC is discovering this now'.

This is exactly the line we have taken - that the BBC should include at least some regular (that doesn't necessarily mean very frequent) classical music - suitably chosen (curated) - on the various music stations that are listened to by young audiences. The protest that these stations 'don't do that kind of thing' is stating the obvious.

[french frank]

Stephen Hall, Glos that was in my paper yesterday? Sensible, I thought

No. The one in under my own name today (agreeing with Mr Hall's general point). Points summarised more fully in the other post.

[Demetrius]

Yes, they were quick off the mark.

It's worth giving a bit of background to this. When FoR3 started we had about 30 members of the BBC messageboard community. An early survey of views asked them if they supported a children's programme being on Radio 3, and they were virtually unanimous in saying, Yes. What they didn't like was the BBC resorting to the general ploy of using presenters who were 'popular'/well-known - in this case to children. This could be useful IF the individuals have any knowledge or interest in classical music: those from Blue Peter, and then CBBC, clearly hadn't. If anything, the classical pieces came over, in contrast to more 'child-friendly' pieces, as being rather boring with little interesting information added.

But the two points I dug out seem in any case to drive a couple of nails in the coffin: that Radio 3 admitted when Making Tracks was axed that too few Radio 3 listeners had children of the appropriate age to guide their children over to Radio 3 (which I took to be code that it had too few listeners of the target age). This tied up with Radio 4 dropping children's programmes. The Radio 4 controller said that it hadn't worked and that it sometimes registered ‘zero listeners from its target four-to-14 age range’ (partly for the same reason, perhaps, since the average age of the Radio 4 audience is, as I remember, in the low 50s). A campaigner for children's radio also said that 'hiding children's radio within adult-focused formats is the wrong way to go and the BBC is discovering this now'.

This is exactly the line we have taken - that the BBC should include at least some regular (that doesn't necessarily mean very frequent) classical music - suitably chosen (curated) - on the various music stations that are listened to by young audiences. The protest that these stations 'don't do that kind of thing' is stating the obvious.

Interesting. I'm not entirely sure how a program could be tailored to attract such an amount of listeners between 4 and 14 to classical music that it would be considered a success on Radio Stations that were up to then geared towards pop/rock/punk/rap/ etc.
Several friends of mine have slowly developed an interest in classical music over the last few years as we all approach 30 (I started early, but I've always been the slightly odd one). If I had strapped them on a chair 15 years ago and made them listen to Shostakovich they probably would have bitten off their tongues to end their suffering.
Maybe the new audience that classical music ought to target is not the 14 years old listening to Rebecca Black or the 35 year old reveling in their memories of Ibiza dance music, but those late 20- to early 40-year-olds who have grow disenchanted with this kind of music or at least feel like exploring. I think the new audience isn't adolescent, it's approaching middle age.
As a child (Say, 7 to 12), I actually already liked classical music, but I wasn't ready to listen to it for any length of time or in a situation that wasn't completely in my control. I would never have considered tuning in to a classical radio program. "Serious" listening only came about 6 or 7 years ago, after some 10 years of casual Classic-FMesque listening.

[doversoul1]

ff #25
(this may be off the point but still…)

too few Radio 3 listeners had children of the appropriate age to guide their children over to Radio 3

It may be interesting/useful to point out to R3 (or the BBC) that many Radio3 listeners have young children in their families, including their own grandchildren, and some children do show clear signs of interest in music. Not necessarily picking up a violin at the age of three or trying to play Tom and Jerry on a toy piano but taking notice when they hear music, or stop doing what they are doing and look around for the source of the music, that sort f things. It would be very good if we could suggest to the parents to let the child hear the programme on Radio3.

What does

'hiding children's radio within adult-focused formats

…mean? What sort of a programme will iit be?

[french frank]

Interesting. I'm not entirely sure how a program could be tailored to attract such an amount of listeners between 4 and 14 to classical music that it would be considered a success on Radio Stations that were up to then geared towards pop/rock/punk/rap/ etc.

I think there are interesting pieces, not core repertoire, which might, at least, not make them switch off what they've been listening to until it started. BBC wisdom is that this doesn't work in the way it used to because, with an abundance of choice, THEY WILL SWITCH OVER TO ANOTHER STATION

Maybe the new audience that classical music ought to target is not the 14 years old listening to Rebecca Black or the 35 year old reveling in their memories of Ibiza dance music, but those late 20- to early 40-year-olds who have grow disenchanted with this kind of music or at least feel like exploring. I think the new audience isn't adolescent, it's approaching middle age.

This is what Radio 3 is targeting now for a large slab of its daytime output, plus a slab of its evening output, also designed to bring in a new audience. Which just creates a different problem These are people who have been brought up on a different style of broadcasting as well as a different musical menu and focusing on them makes a different set of listeners switch off.

As a child (Say, 7 to 12), I actually already liked classical music, but I wasn't ready to listen to it for any length of time or in a situation that wasn't completely in my control. I would never have considered tuning in to a classical radio program.

I didn't even know there was such a thing, but I enjoyed the music on LP that my brother had started to listen to. But that simply closes off both avenues as far as young audiences are concerned: not on the youth-oriented stations, not on the classical stations

"Serious" listening only came about 6 or 7 years ago, after some 10 years of casual Classic-FMesque listening.

Many people are quite happy for Classic FM to fulfil that function. I'm not certain that the current Radio 3/Classic FM technique develops many keen classical listeners, willing to delve out of curiosity into the whole range of different styles.

[Richard Tarleton]

Interesting. I'm not entirely sure how a program could be tailored to attract such an amount of listeners between 4 and 14 to classical music that it would be considered a success on Radio Stations that were up to then geared towards pop/rock/punk/rap/ etc.

An example, Demetrius?

his Radio 3 show, Pied Piper, ran for five years, in which time he made an astonishing 655 editions, and covered music from monody to prog rock..

Is Alan Davey really going to recreate it?