This will teach me to read The Guardian

[LMcD]

Hello, David D, and welcome. I agree with what you say but I wasn't annoyed by the article. It's an argument about categorisation rather than music. Saying that this undemanding easy-listening music gets more audiences than 'classical' is irrelevant. So does Taylor Swift. That doesn't make either of them intelectually-stimulating enough to be interesting to a thinking person. Trying to set them up as a rival to the main stream of classical music is a journalistic attempt to get attention by stirring up controversy. Take a deep breath , get on with your own life and good luck to you.

What is annoying,of course, is when people like Sam Jackson and this year's Proms planner replace classical music with pop and crossover and call it 'classical' . That's called 'dumbing down' and we have every right to protest about it because it reverses what Radio 3 is supposed to be about. .

I agree with you, but Jackson & Co will doubtless try to convince us that 'reverses' should read 'expands' or 'refreshes'.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Hello, David D, and welcome. I agree with what you say but I wasn't annoyed by the article. It's an argument about categorisation rather than music. Saying that this undemanding easy-listening music gets more audiences than 'classical' is irrelevant. So does Taylor Swift. That doesn't make either of them intelectually-stimulating enough to be interesting to a thinking person. Trying to set them up as a rival to the main stream of classical music is a journalistic attempt to get attention by stirring up controversy. Take a deep breath , get on with your own life and good luck to you.

What is annoying,of course, is when people like Sam Jackson and this year's Proms planner replace classical music with pop and crossover and call it 'classical' . That's called 'dumbing down' and we have every right to protest about it because it reverses what Radio 3 is supposed to be about. .

Good points . The problem with the article is the shrill clickbait headline bears scant relation to the article .
The success of minimalist repetitive mediative piano music is as much a psycho-cultural phenomenon as it is musical. It’s bound up with mindfulness (even though you’re advised not to listen to music when meditating ) , the chill culture , the idea that modern society is so stressful that it’s only by constant focus on one’s mental state that psychic calm can be achieved.
On a musical note piano arpeggios are not the technical feat Fiona thinks they are . They are pretty easy. Now if a minimalist ever did a scale based piece (like a lot of Mozart and Beethoven ) I’d be impressed . But that ain’t ever going to happen because the first thing you have to do is take your foot off the sustaining pedal - so we can then hear whether you can actually play the instrument . Oh yes and you also have to do something musically - maybe even modulate.

[Old Grumpy]

The Guardian's categorising of Classical as a separate topic does something similar. This subtle "othering" of Classical from Music parts the history of the subject from current artistic endeavour, something that none of the other categories do. Art, literature and drama stretch into the past yet none of them are similarly divided. The corralling of classical music seeps into journalistic attitudes, which is why I mention it with regard to the original article.

There was a time when Jazz had a separate review section in the Observer/Guardian, but is now subsumed into section with 'pop' [my italics], and often not represented at all.

[richardfinegold]

Welcome David, and I hope you find your move from lurker to participant enjoyable.
I saw the article and did consider responding, but in the end didn't - too many issues to address I felt. From what I remember the performers themselves aren't that fussed about whether the "classical" world rates them or not - they make their music and let listeners make up their own minds about its value. My view is that it is evidently bringing pleasure to millions and that to me is one of the purposes of music - in all its forms. I think it's pointless to argue about whether it is "worth" listening to, not least because it doesn't preclude or prevent listening to(perhaps performing) and being equally passionate about "classical" music, and also because it then strays into the difficult and potentially unpleasant territory of being dismissive or scornful about a person's music choices. Having been exposed to, and instinctively disliking, that from a very early age I don't like to see it in action.

One of the virtues of this kind of ambient music is that it might be a gateway for some fans into ‘proper’ Classical composers

[french frank]

One of the virtues of this kind of ambient music is that it might be a gateway for some fans into ‘proper’ Classical composers

You say "might be". But many approaches "might be" gateways into classical music. I would suggest taking the music, in its most appealing form, to the audience you need to appeal to, rather than trying to attract people to its normal environmental habitat where it currently exists (R3, the Proms), and polluting that environment with repetitious, familiar, undemanding fodder + chat.

But moving the material to the audience would mean intruding on valuable high audience air space. and - oh horror! - possibly losing audience somewhat.

[Padraig]

You say "might be". But many approaches "might be" gateways into classical music. I would suggest taking the music, in its most appealing form, to the audience you need to appeal to, rather than trying to attract people to its normal environmental habitat where it currently exists (R3, the Proms), and polluting that environment with repetitious, familiar, undemanding fodder + chat.

richard did not say "might be", f f. He said that it might be. Adding scare quotes to his words changes his meaning. Just as 'proper' Classical composers, in his words, draws attention to his use of irony in the context of the ongoing discussion.
And when I'm at it, I think some, certainly I, would consider quotes round some of your wording in the phrase 'polluting the environment with repetitious, familiar, undemanding fodder and chat'.
Nobody has the unquestionably right answer to resolving this thorny discussion, though in the meantime 'knowing what one likes' is helpful to some of us.

[Padraig]

I saw the article and did consider responding, but in the end didn't - too many issues to address I felt. From what I remember the performers themselves aren't that fussed about whether the "classical" world rates them or not - they make their music and let listeners make up their own minds about its value. My view is that it is evidently bringing pleasure to millions and that to me is one of the purposes of music - in all its forms. I think it's pointless to argue about whether it is "worth" listening to, not least because it doesn't preclude or prevent listening to(perhaps performing) and being equally passionate about "classical" music, and also because it then strays into the difficult and potentially unpleasant territory of being dismissive or scornful about a person's music choices. Having been exposed to, and instinctively disliking, that from a very early age I don't like to see it in action.

Triple o, may I call you that, I read this post earlier and found much of it to agree with. Over the years I have argued my corner on this very topic. I have since replied to a different post on the same topic from a different perspective. You'll find it sits quite comfortably with yours, I hope.

[french frank]

Adding scare quotes to his words changes his meaning.

I did not know that. I used quotation marks to indicate I was quoting the precise words used. The term scare quotes is not one I was familiar with so I apologise if, in the eyes of others, I misrepresented what was said. But I still think my point was valid: that one could equally well take the music to the audience as try to lure the audience in (whether to R3 or the Proms), but the BBC has been doing the opposite in the case of Radio 3.

[Ein Heldenleben]

richard did not say "might be", f f. He said that it might be. Adding scare quotes to his words changes his meaning. Just as 'proper' Classical composers, in his words, draws attention to his use of irony in the context of the ongoing discussion.
And when I'm at it, I think some, certainly I, would consider quotes round some of your wording in the phrase 'polluting the environment with repetitious, familiar, undemanding fodder and chat'.
Nobody has the unquestionably right answer to resolving this thorny discussion, though in the meantime 'knowing what one likes' is helpful to some of us.

To be fair putting inverted commas round a phrase is what journalists are supposed to do when they are directly quoting. There is no “scare” element to it. It’s often legally vital as in the newspaper headline .. Defendant “obviously guilty “ hears jury.

[Retune]

Good points . The problem with the article is the shrill clickbait headline bears scant relation to the article .

I agree, though the author probably didn't write the headline. Perhaps the Guardian is hiring copy editors from the Daily Express these days? The Express pulls this trick with every other story, and not just for political pieces. Even the tennis headlines bear little relationship to what is underneath them.

On a musical note piano arpeggios are not the technical feat Fiona thinks they are . They are pretty easy. Now if a minimalist ever did a scale based piece (like a lot of Mozart and Beethoven ) I’d be impressed . But that ain’t ever going to happen because the first thing you have to do is take your foot off the sustaining pedal - so we can then hear whether you can actually play the instrument . Oh yes and you also have to do something musically - maybe even modulate.

I think her point wasn't that arpeggios are difficult, but rather that there is little more to these pieces than arpeggios.

[Padraig]

To be fair putting inverted commas round a phrase is what journalists are supposed to do when they are directly quoting. There is no “scare” element to it. It’s often legally vital as in the newspaper headline .. Defendant “obviously guilty “ hears jury.

E H,I don't want to prolong this discussion here, unless you do; so my response to your post is that quoting two words from a sentence in indirect speech, is not what journalists are supposed to do.
The sentence in question, to save your scrolling about, is: One of the virtues of this kind of ambient music is that it might be a gateway for some fans into 'proper' Classical music.

'might be' hardly summarises the gist of the sentence. Bad bad journalist!

[oliver sudden]

'might be' hardly summarises the gist of the sentence. Bad bad journalist!

The entire sentence appears in ff’s post though, directly preceding the partial quotation…

[french frank]

The entire sentence appears in ff’s post though, directly preceding the partial quotation…

I was going to point that out but thought I'd let the matter drop. I think Padraig's criticism was, in the circumstances, unjustified but am content that he and I should agree to disagree on the subject. It was in any case not the main point of my original comment. rfg spoke of one possibility and I offered alternative possibilities.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I was going to point that out but thought I'd let the matter drop. I think Padraig's criticism was, in the circumstances, unjustified but am content that he and I should agree to disagree on the subject. It was in any case not the main point of my original comment. rfg spoke of one possibility and I offered alternative possibilities.

I think you are a rather excellent journalist !