Proms Extra: Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony

[Beef Oven!]

On a more serious note...I really enjoyed the most recent posts by ferney and jlw.....

[ahinton]

I suppose that I occupy some kind of middle ground here, neither finding in DSCH 7 all that Jayne does nor railing at banalities and the like. I think that the symphony works well on its own terms and I don;t particularly feel that anything is out of place (although maybe it's a just little overlong for its own good) but, for all its fine and engaging ideas, the end result falls way short of what I get from 6, 8, 10,13 and 15 in particular - or even 1, for that matter - to say nothing of 4!...

[Roehre]

I suppose that I occupy some kind of middle ground here, neither finding in DSCH 7 all that Jayne does nor railing at banalities and the like. I think that the symphony works well on its own terms and I don;t particularly feel that anything is out of place (although maybe it's a just little overlong for its own good) but, for all its fine and engaging ideas, the end result falls way short of what I get from 6, 8, 10,13 and 15 in particular - or even 1, for that matter - to say nothing of 4!...

I am with ahinton here.

The opening mvt e.g. shows for me to close for comfort that the work wasn't started as a symphony at all, but only as an afterthought was changed from a symphonic poem to a full symphonic structure.

I have severe doubts about the underlying programme too, contrary to the 8th and especially 11 and 12.

For me 4 is the supreme DSCH-symphony, followed by 15, 8 and 10, approx in that order.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The first movement 'invasion' episode was utterly terrifying from this perspective, like being sucked into a tornado. Frightening!

Edgey also described the Music as "terrifying" - a description I genuinely find as baffling as reading that Victorian readers found the death of Little Nell deeply affecting. I notice again, though, that it's the context of the performance that you single out, Pet - can you (I repeat, this isn't a smartdonkey comment, but genuine interest and fascination) identify the Musical features - the melodic, rhythmic, tonal, instrumental, structural etc etc - that create the "terror" for you? Does Bolero have the same effect - I presume not, but what is Musically present in the Leningrad episode (interesting word) that arouses the feelings you have?

[Once Was 4]

Edgey also described the Music as "terrifying" - a description I genuinely find as baffling as reading that Victorian readers found the death of Little Nell deeply affecting. I notice again, though, that it's the context of the performance that you single out, Pet - can you (I repeat, this isn't a smartdonkey comment, but genuine interest and fascination) identify the Musical features - the melodic, rhythmic, tonal, instrumental, structural etc etc - that create the "terror" for you? Does Bolero have the same effect - I presume not, but what is Musically present in the Leningrad episode (interesting word) that arouses the feelings you have?

Some very interesting discussion here. I first got to know this symphony by playing 6th horn in it as an extra player with the one of the leading regional orchestras. Some of the regular players, especially in the heavy brass, were 'sending it up rotten' in the rehearsals to the annoyance of the conductor (Arvid Jansons - what an experience it was to work for him!). The Principal horn had read up on the background of the work and remonstrated with his colleagues - he found it very moving and I quickly realised what he meant.

Many years later I played it again as 4th horn in the orchestra where I was then employed; surprisingly it was the first ever performance of it in Leeds. This was almost a re-run of my earlier experience - many of my colleagues (several of whom were very keen on other Shostakovich symphonies) could not see why our then MD was so enthusiastic about the work - although he did not help by going into a long verbal ramble about the first movement being a picture of the vast expanses of Russia - professional orchestras do not react well to that kind of thing. I tried to talk about its background in the rehearsal teabreak but quickly gave it up as a bad job - I was already famous for my 'bad' tastes in music (Elgar etc).

So does the context matter? Or should music just stand on its own two feet without any kind of backstory?

On another point - near to the end there is a sudden outburst from horns 5 to 8 totally 'spare'. I was told by the Principal horn of the of the European orchestras that they should be seated separately from the main orchestra as should also be the other extra brass. I have never experienced it being done like that. Does anybody know whether this is the case?

[Hitch]

The immediate answer, in this case, is that anything that takes you closer to the work and enables you to enjoy it is to be valued.

The same could be applied, with thanks, to this thread. Current listening: S7, RLPO, Petrenko.

[Petrushka]

Edgey also described the Music as "terrifying" - a description I genuinely find as baffling as reading that Victorian readers found the death of Little Nell deeply affecting. I notice again, though, that it's the context of the performance that you single out, Pet - can you (I repeat, this isn't a smartdonkey comment, but genuine interest and fascination) identify the Musical features - the melodic, rhythmic, tonal, instrumental, structural etc etc - that create the "terror" for you? Does Bolero have the same effect - I presume not, but what is Musically present in the Leningrad episode (interesting word) that arouses the feelings you have?

This is pretty difficult for me to answer as I'm not musically educated, just a mere listener but I'll try to say something anyway. I don't buy into the comparison with Ravel's Bolero; sure, the relentless rhythmic impulse is broadly similar but Ravel makes it a quite different experience than does DSCH. As it, happens, yes, Bolero does terrify but only at the very end at the sudden change of key. Shostakovich's relentless, implacable juggernaut has real menace from the opening side drum taps and the cumulative build up is genuinely frightening.

I've long had a strong interest in the Second World War and read Harrison Salisbury's book on the siege back in 1969 long before I'd heard a note of the Shostakovich though I had heard of him. Ten years later, in 1979 I went to Leningrad and visited the Piskaryov Cemetery where many victims of the 900 day siege are buried. In the mean time I'd heard Berglund's recording. I couldn't then understand the disparaging comments on this symphony and nor can I now. It's an overwhelming experience in the concert hall and I've heard a few over the years.

Sorry I can't do much better, FHG, but I'm probably not the right person to give you the answer you want.

[richardfinegold]

I don't become "terrified" when I hear the First Movement, but I certainly appreciate that it is very evocative in depicting terrible events. When the "buzz sawing" second theme appears superimposed on the invasion theme, and is punctuated with outbursts of tympani, it is hard not to visualize Stuka dive bombers delivering death and destruction. I am impressed by the skill of the Composer, but for whatever reason, not terrified.
The 11th Symphony has been mentioned in this thread as being an even greater example of the Composer depicting horrible events. I concur with that, and while it is superbly evocative and entertaining, it doesn't terrify me either.
There are two pieces by Shostakovich that do terrify me. The first is the First Violin Concerto. It's nightmarish I, the forced gaiety of II, the pleading and desolate Chaconne, the determined individualism of the cadenza, and the tentative sigh of relief of the finale all depict a nightmarish world where a knock on the door could mean a dissapearance into the Gulag and that is just a moment away. This piece depicts the monstrousness of living with Totalitarianism much more effectively than either of the Symphonies.
Finally, his Second Piano Trio. It depicts Jews being forced to dance on their graves before being machine gunned. I think it is a masterpiece, but I have to be in a special mood to listen

[EdgeleyRob]

Like Petrushka I am at a loss to be able to explain why I find the invasion music terrifying.
It made me feel that way even before I knew anything about the history or subject of the work.
Didn't DSCH expect a poor critical response to the music from some quarters ?
and reply with something like “Let them accuse me, but that’s how I hear war,”

Interesting documentary here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--fS...yer_detailpage
Some of you guys will probably know it.
The Leningrad is from about 35 mins in.

[ahinton]

Just as an aside - Shostakovich died 40 years ago today...

[Petrushka]

Just as an aside - Shostakovich died 40 years ago today...

I had remembered this and recall perfectly well where I was and what I was doing when I heard the news.

[Roehre]

I had remembered this and recall perfectly well where I was and what I was doing when I heard the news.

As I do

[ahinton]

I remember too - with horror. Having recently been abroad and, on my return to UK, happened to be aboard a train from London Paddington to Bath, I picked up someone's discarded Daily Telegraph and saw a piece stating that Rostropovich was about to conduct an all-Shostakovich programme somewhere in London (I cannot now recall where); as I thought how good it would be to attend, my eyes chanced upon the words "Shostakovich memorial concert" and, when the news sunk in, I simply froze and could not think straight for a long time afterwards. I had never met the composer (although Britten had most kindly promised to introduce me to him should a suitable opportunity ever arise), but I still felt as though a fundamental source of life's energies had suddenly disappeared into thin air)...