Proms Extra: Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony

[Bryn]

What a strange event this was. Somehow Service, Fanning and Frolova-Walker managed to discuss the repeated theme of the first movement without even a hint of a reference to Lehar. The highly questionable attribution of Bartok's parodying of the same theme to animosity against Shostakovich was trundled out as if it was other than unreliable hearsay. Given Bartok's own politics, it seems rather more likely to me that he too was paraphrasing the Lehar to satirise Hitler rather than the Leningrad.

[Petrushka]

I agree with this and also noted the omission. It's always possible that any reference got lost in the editing process but somehow doubt it. The Lehar reference in the Leningrad Symphony is also said to be a DSCH family 'in-joke' in connection with his son, Maxim.

[Serial_Apologist]

If myth it is, that GFEDCBbBb, FEDCBbA sequence (or whatever the actual pitches are ) makes it in a way understandable. The story is I believe usually attributed to Koussevitsky's alleged championing of Shostakovitch at Bartok's expense, notwithstanding the sponsorship of the work in which he is claimed to have done this.

[EdgeleyRob]

I wonder why No 7 isn't generally considered to be DSCH's finest symphony.
It's certainly my favourite,and I consider it to be his best,but I'm no expert.
Experts hereabouts fell free to explain why I'm wrong.

[Beef Oven!]

I wonder why No 7 isn't generally considered to be DSCH's finest symphony.
It's certainly my favourite,and I consider it to be his best,but I'm no expert.
Experts hereabouts fell free to explain why I'm wrong.

Because 4 is his best symphony. You're not wrong, you just didn't realise. Happens a lot.

[richardfinegold]

[QUOTE=EdgeleyRob;500560]I wonder why No 7 isn't generally considered to be DSCH's finest symphony.
It's certainly my favourite,and I consider it to be his best,but I'm no expert.
Experts hereabouts fell free to explain why I'm wrong.[/QUOTE

I would rank it behind 4,5,6,8,10, 11, and 15, but it is still a great piece

[Hornspieler]

[QUOTE=richardfinegold;500577]

I wonder why No 7 isn't generally considered to be DSCH's finest symphony.
It's certainly my favourite,and I consider it to be his best,but I'm no expert.
Experts hereabouts fell free to explain why I'm wrong.[/QUOTE

I would rank it behind 4,5,6,8,10, 11, and 15, but it is still a great piece

My favourite symphony is Nº 1.

It is short, cheerful, innovative and is the product of a young mind, uninfluenced by the composer's environment or the compositions of others.

I have played in all of the symphonies up to number 11 and I feel that the difficulties imposed on the players, especially the violins, and those wearisome slow movements are not justified by the end result.

I am reminded of the apocriphal story told to me by the American composer Stephen Elliot:

The New York Philharmonic were rehearsing one of those interminable Russian "War" symphonies. After two hours without a break, the principal horn turned to his assistant :

"You carry on" he said. "I'll stay here and rest awhile with the wounded."

HS

[EdgeleyRob]

Because 4 is his best symphony. You're not wrong, you just didn't realise. Happens a lot.

Ah ! Thanks BeefO,I always thought No 4 was his 2nd best,you live and learn.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Because 4 is his best symphony. You're not wrong, you just didn't realise. Happens a lot.

Yes - #4: that astonishing melding of The Rite of Spring and Mahler - a seemingly impossible marriage that succeeds so miraculously here.
Or #15 - equally astonishing in completely opposite ways.

And, to answer Rob's question - because these two (not to mention 6, 5, 9, 1, 8, 10, 13, 14, 2, 3, 11 & 12) are so much better.


(I obviously don't "get" No7 - the only enjoyment I get from it is hilarity at the end. I sense neither the "real sense of horror that living in Stalin's Russia" nor the "advance of Nazi forces into the homeland" that some writers have insisted is/are important things to bear in mind when the work is being performed. Mostly what I hear is thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump;



... and I don't think dance Music works at the Proms.

[Beef Oven!]

Yes - #4: that astonishing melding of The Rite of Spring and Mahler - a seemingly impossible marriage that succeeds so miraculously here.
Or #15 - equally astonishing in completely opposite ways.

And, to answer Rob's question - because these two (not to mention 6, 5, 9, 1, 8, 10, 13, 14, 2, 3, 11 & 12) are so much better.

But true!

thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump;

Careful, the horses!

... and I don't think dance Music works at the Proms.

[EdgeleyRob]

Yes - #4: that astonishing melding of The Rite of Spring and Mahler - a seemingly impossible marriage that succeeds so miraculously here.
Or #15 - equally astonishing in completely opposite ways.

And, to answer Rob's question - because these two (not to mention 6, 5, 9, 1, 8, 10, 13, 14, 2, 3, 11 & 12) are so much better.


(I obviously don't "get" No7 - the only enjoyment I get from it is hilarity at the end. I sense neither the "real sense of horror that living in Stalin's Russia" nor the "advance of Nazi forces into the homeland" that some writers have insisted is/are important things to bear in mind when the work is being performed. Mostly what I hear is thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump; thumpetty Thump Etty thumpetty thump;



... and I don't think dance Music works at the Proms.

Thanks ferney.

Those are the things I certainly do hear in this symphony,and more.

People who know a great deal more than me about these things tend not to rate No 7,so it must be me.
This happens with a lot of music that impresses me.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks ferney.

Those are the things I certainly do hear in this symphony,and more.

People who know a great deal more than me about these things tend not to rate No 7,so it must be me.
This happens with a lot of music that impresses me.

It certainly has its moments - in respect of whose unnevenness it could be compared with Prokofiev's Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution.

[Petrushka]

I think that Shostakovich came much closer to the real meaning behind his 7th Symphony when, according to the controversial Testimony, he spoke of the Psalms of David as being an influence, especially those that speak of revenge. The ending of the whole work is like a mighty gathering, small at first but steadily accumulating tremendous force, as if an immense fist is being shaken with the utmost rage. It's the individual, the 'little man', against forces which help make his life an unbearable misery. 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord' might almost be the heading on the score.

The 5th Symphony, followed by the 10th, remain my DSCH favourites but the 7th has a special place. It was widely misunderstood for decades and, even now, I don't think it receives its due.

A masterpiece? Yes, I think so.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

People who know a great deal more than me about these things tend not to rate No 7,so it must be me.

Well, JLW is very enthusiastic about the work - as was Ian MacDonald, who also preferred it to many other DSCH symphonies (although his entire vision of the composer was rather desperately tunnel-visioned, to the detriment of the achievement of the Music IMO) - so NOT "just" you.

This happens with a lot of music that impresses me.

Which doesn't matter, of course - I've forgotten who it was who said that we should believe in our enthusiasms, as these respond to the best in both the works we respond to AND in ourselves. (And you might be right about RVW#9 - I don't know it as well as Nos 3, 4, 5, or 6. BUT you ARE wrong about Bruckner & Mahler [and Sibelius] - I'd add to the "believe in your enthusiasms" the caveat: "be cautious of your dislikes", for the complementary reasons. Which is why I keep trying Verdi and Messiaen and RVW "Sea" and all those others who don't do it for me - and why I'll keep on grabbing every opportunity to hear the Leningrad! In spite of what experience is trying to tell me!)

[EdgeleyRob]

Well, JLW is very enthusiastic about the work - as was Ian MacDonald, who also preferred it to many other DSCH symphonies (although his entire vision of the composer was rather desperately tunnel-visioned, to the detriment of the achievement of the Music IMO) - so NOT "just" you.


Which doesn't matter, of course - I've forgotten who it was who said that we should believe in our enthusiasms, as these respond to the best in both the works we respond to AND in ourselves. (And you might be right about RVW#9 - I don't know it as well as Nos 3, 4, 5, or 6. BUT you ARE wrong about Bruckner & Mahler [and Sibelius] - I'd add to the "believe in your enthusiasms" the caveat: "be cautious of your dislikes", for the complementary reasons. Which is why I keep trying Verdi and Messiaen and RVW "Sea" and all those others who don't do it for me - and why I'll keep on grabbing every opportunity to hear the Leningrad! In spite of what experience is trying to tell me!)

Thanks again ferney.
Bruckner and Mahler are a different case for me.
For some reason,I've no idea why,I fall in and out of love with their music.
These days I can't bear to listen to Mahler especially,been there before,in the future I know I will go through a period of listening to little else,been there before too.
I do keep trying the music of Sibelius,I'm cautious of disliking it, but don't particularly like the sound it makes