F-X Roth in Trouble

[richardfinegold]

Apparently Roth, who previously had been an outsized trajectory of ascent in both the HIPP and ‘regular’ instrument worlds, has hit a major speed bump in his career, reportedly having sent selfies of his genitalia to or orchestral musicians. If true, besides being potentially upsetting (to say the least) to the musicians, it’s also just beyond stupid.
Is there more of an issue with this kind of behavior in the Classical Music world? There certainly seem to have been some conspicuous incidents

[smittims]

Maybe it's just that the media are on the lookout for it. I've suspected that when one thing happens in certain area of human activity the media alert themselves to find similar cases, and we get a succession of news stories of the same category. But I do sometimes feel that people in 'high -public-profile' professions are prone to unwise behaviour.

[oddoneout]

Abuse of power, which is what it is, occurs across the spectrum of human activity, so no it isn't more of an issue in the Classical Music world than any other. As smittims says, the media pick up on an example and going looking for more in the same pond, which can give a false impression. On the plus side that digging for dirt can also expose other cases that have been swept under the carpet for too long. The Catholic church is a classic case of what everyone knew and accepted as "normal", but it's only relatively recently had to challenge such assumptions. Organisations such as the Armed Forces, the police force and now the Fire Service, are having attention turned on their practices and what is similarly accepted as "part of the job". A lot of effort goes into making sure such practices don't get to the attention of the outside world and cause harm to the organisation involved especially when high profile,/famous or influential people are involved, which adds to the harm caused to those who are the subject of the behaviour.

[Petrushka]

My concern about thls and similar allegations (Domingo, Gatti, Levine for example) is that they never make it into a court of law whereby the truth, or otherwise, along with any mitigating circumstances, can be properly assessed and justice done for all concerned.

The assumption that those making accusations are telling the unvarnished truth seems to have taken hold and claims are not put under proper scrutiny. The outcome of this is that the accused does not get a fair hearing, while those making allegations do not see justice done.

We all know that the media are not always truthful, to put it mildly, and we all know that plenty of motivations exist for making false allegations. The proper place for these matters is in a court of law.

[richardfinegold]

My concern about thls and similar allegations (Domingo, Gatti, Levine for example) is that they never make it into a court of law whereby the truth, or otherwise, along with any mitigating circumstances, can be properly assessed and justice done for all concerned.

The assumption that those making accusations are telling the unvarnished truth seems to have taken hold and claims are not put under proper scrutiny. The outcome of this is that the accused does not get a fair hearing, while those making allegations do not see justice done.

We all know that the media are not always truthful, to put it mildly, and we all know that plenty of motivations exist for making false allegations. The proper place for these matters is in a court of law.

I couldn’t agree more, particularly in the “he said, she said” type of cases. It is so easy to destroy someone with a false accusation, and so difficult for the accused to “prove a negative “-that they didn’t do something.
However, if there is physical evidence, such as selfies, it elevates this a notch. At the very least, even if this was a ‘consensual’ sharing of pictures, it was just incredibly poor judgment in view of what has occurred over the last decade or so.
There is no way to determine whether these issues are more common in the Classical World than in other entertainment industries, or any workplace in general. However the system is designed to create these cases. Large numbers of people vying for a small number of competitive positions, and the power that conductors and teachers potentially have. I suppose it happens every where

[duncan]

Abuse of power, which is what it is, occurs across the spectrum of human activity, so no it isn't more of an issue in the Classical Music world than any other.

I have a little direct knowledge of the environment from working in medical support role and a lot of indirect knowledge through friendships with performers. I respectfully disagree with this for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, what would be completely unacceptable behaviour in a modern business environment is sometime tolerated and put down to 'artistic temperament'.

Secondly, the highly subjective nature of musical merit means it's easier for - for example - a conductor to exert abusive control over a musician than where there are more objective measures of performance like sales figures.

My concern about thls and similar allegations (Domingo, Gatti, Levine for example) is that they never make it into a court of law whereby the truth, or otherwise, along with any mitigating circumstances, can be properly assessed and justice done for all concerned.

The assumption that those making accusations are telling the unvarnished truth seems to have taken hold and claims are not put under proper scrutiny. The outcome of this is that the accused does not get a fair hearing, while those making allegations do not see justice done.

We all know that the media are not always truthful, to put it mildly, and we all know that plenty of motivations exist for making false allegations. The proper place for these matters is in a court of law.

Disagree. So often cases boil down to s/he said-s/he said that going through the courts is rarely likely to be successful. I'd have thought the history of abuse in other fields - Saville or Weinstein, amongst very many examples - and of the dispiriting low success of rape cases would be ample demonstration of this. Often, as with Levine for example, his behaviour was an open secret but there was nothing that would stand up in court.

[LHC]

I have a little direct knowledge of the environment from working in medical support role and a lot of indirect knowledge through friendships with performers. I respectfully disagree with this for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, what would be completely unacceptable behaviour in a modern business environment is sometime tolerated and put down to 'artistic temperament'.

Secondly, the highly subjective nature of musical merit means it's easier for - for example - a conductor to exert abusive control over a musician than where there are more objective measures of performance like sales figures.




Disagree. So often cases boil down to s/he said-s/he said that going through the courts is rarely likely to be successful. I'd have thought the history of abuse in other fields - Saville or Weinstein, amongst very many examples - and of the dispiriting low success of rape cases would be ample demonstration of this. Often, as with Levine for example, his behaviour was an open secret but there was nothing that would stand up in court.

I agree with this.

This article from the Violin Channel also gives more detailed background on this case, which does appear to be rather more than 'he said, she said'.

https://theviolinchannel.com/conductor-francois-xavier-roth-faces-sexual-harassment-allegations/

Roth has since stepped back from all his conducting engagements and the Gurzenich Orchestra has cancelled his contract a year early. The LSO is also attempting to replace all his engagements for next season as he has withdrawn from these.

As the article suggests, this behaviour appears to have been known about since at least 2005, but was largely tolerated as a 'rite of passage' that the recipients of his messages had to go through; something that would be completely unacceptable in most modern business environments.

[french frank]

This article from the Violin Channel also gives more detailed background on this case, which does appear to be rather more than 'he said, she said'.

https://theviolinchannel.com/conductor-francois-xavier-roth-faces-sexual-harassment-allegations/

In the middle of having lunch but now waiting for coffee to brew. As you do, I've been mulling this. I would agree with the axiom "Innocent until proved guilty": court cases establish judicial guilt, whether you're convicted, fined, imprisoned or whatever. Isn't that the only sort of 'guilt'? I'd argue there was also moral guilt, 'It was an open secret' &c &c. And that can be pretty much established without court proceedings (or judicial punishment).

Is it more common in the field of classical music? Perhaps. But it's common in specific contexts where opportunities are available.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There’s a big difference between criminal guilt and enough evidence to get you sacked by a company. Many US companies will terminate an exec who has a consensual but unregistered relationship with an employee for example.
The weird thing is that activity that isn’t criminal e.g, bullying can quite easily get you the sack whereas activity which is borderline criminal like sexual harassment can sometimes get hushed up or people get inexplicable second chances.
One thing I can say with authority the tolerance of such behaviour has massively diminished over the years which is why many of my former media colleagues are ,shall we say , somewhat astonished at the apparently lenient treatment of a certain well known newsreader.

[duncan]

Is it more common in the field of classical music? Perhaps. But it's common in specific contexts where opportunities are available.

That's a better way of putting it. Such abuse is not uniquely common in classical music but I believe levels of abuse are not broadly uniform across all fields of human endeavour as some posters seemed to be suggesting. I believe it is more common in classical music because of certain structural factors including opportunity and power-imbalances. Other contexts - film making, organised religion, youth sport for examples - appear to have similar structural factors and also appear to have higher than average rates of abuse.

Classical music needs to be aware that parts of its nature increase the risks of abuse and be on the lookout for, and much more less tolerant of, the abusive behaviour of stars, teachers and others in powerful positions. There is still an omertà around certain performers and I will be amazed if FXR is the last middle-ranking musician to be accused of behaving in this manner or worse in the next few years.

[smittims]

I have noticed that male conductors tend to attract sexual desire in women (the figure of a commanding male standing up... need one say more?) , and presumably there's the temptation to exploit this.

[french frank]

I have noticed that male conductors tend to attract sexual desire in women (the figure of a commanding male standing up... need one say more?) , and presumably there's the temptation to exploit this.

Semi-generalisation? That may attract some women, just as a semi-naked woman would attract some men. Stereotypes can also be repulsive.

[oddoneout]

Semi-generalisation? That may attract some women, just as a semi-naked woman would attract some men. Stereotypes can also be repulsive.

And vice versa.
However I think smittims has a point about adulation bringing the risk of temptation.

[Serial_Apologist]

And vice versa.
However I think smittims has a point about adulation bringing the risk of temptation.

Equally importantly I think, the issue of abuse comes down to one of trust. We have to work out what it is that engenders unquestioning trust in many people. Someone on a TV chat show this morning - an intelligent woman by all accounts - was talking bout how risible she found Trump to be yet while at the same time finding something mesmerising (her word) about him. It's similar to the "telephone voice" some firms use to persuade people to buy their product. My own theory is that this form of persuasiveness could well be hard-wired into the infant in the stage when when it is still physically helpless and at the mercy of more powerful grown-ups, (by definition), and that through emotional and other pressures the vital part of the process of maturation which is all about discrimination can become neutralised, thereby prolonging an individual's vulnerability into adulthood and even possibly a lifetime of psychological servitude.

[Barbirollians]

Oh dear very unpleasant behaviour alleged and apparently with corroborating records and photos according to the Violin Channel report . I imagine record companies are now likely, considering his ubiquity, to have lots of recordings in the can they are going to struggle to sell even if they release them at all.