Music you've still not grown to like

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes Walton 1 is a prime example Dave.
This indifference to Sibelius and Nielsen used to bother me,now I just shrug my shoulders.
And yet I can't understand how for example S_A doesn't get Rubbra or Arnold

It's more that they don't hold my attention than that I actively dislike them because where the music is going often seems a matter of indifference (to me). I feel I should like Rubbra's music because of his interest in Taoism, which we share, but, in his case to me the orchestration often seems under-considered, especially in the symphonies. Some of have described it as grey, to which Rubbra answered, "Well, perhaps I like grey"!

Arnold's music seems more and more derivative the more I hear of it - now Poulenc, now Sibelius, now Mahler, now VW, now Shosakovitch, now Walton: will the real Malcolm Arnold please stand up and stop winning oscars for admittedly smart imitations please? I feel much the same about the late Wretched Rodney Bin-It. And I think whoever said he was Britain's finest orchestrator was way off-mark.

[Beef Oven!]

So? it's easier to identify with music of the early 20th century than that of the 19th. I can go with that.

You can't get that from what FH said. There is the chance that FH loves Wagner. Where does that leave us?

[Flosshilde]

Well, I do as a matter of fact. But Wagner was looking forward with his music (& wasn't writing symphonies; it's mainly symphonic or orchestral music I'm thinking of); Bruckner, from what I've heard of it, was looking back.

[Beef Oven!]

Well, I do as a matter of fact. But Wagner was looking forward with his music (& wasn't writing symphonies; it's mainly symphonic or orchestral music I'm thinking of); Bruckner, from what I've heard of it, was looking back.

Bruckner was not looking back either.

[Roehre]

Well, I do as a matter of fact. But Wagner was looking forward with his music (& wasn't writing symphonies; it's mainly symphonic or orchestral music I'm thinking of); Bruckner, from what I've heard of it, was looking back.

I do think the 9th is looking forward - It isn't by chance this is a work which influenced Mahler's Ninth, not only melodically (the jump in both the first themes of the 3rd and 4th movements e.g.), but alos harmonically.
Bruckner 9 harmonies cannot be analyzed by exclusively using 19C harmony textbooks, let alone Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum, the work through which Bruckner was trained in counterpoint and harmony by Sechter (as Beethoven was by Haydn and Albrechtsger, as Fux's work dates from the early 1700s , published 1725)

Sibelius 1's scherzo is influenced by Bruckner 9 too, btw. This is the more remarkable as Sibelius studied a short while with Bruckner and Sibelius 1 was premiered before Bruckner 9.

[verismissimo]

I enjoy Rubbra's violin sonatas...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Violin-Sonatas-No-Edmund-Rubbra/dp/B00002MXU6/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1437137572&sr=1-1&keywords=rubbra+osostowicz

First heard his orchestral music live at a Prom in 1966(?).

[Serial_Apologist]

... is it? I find it easier to identify with music of the 17th and 18th century than that of the 19th century. I'm not sure I understand what you mean - it certainly ain't a general truth...

For me what appeals in early 20th century music is signals for an imaginative creative beckoning world - one in which the possibilities unfurled in earlier stages might find some kind of fruition, in turn informing the kind(s) of civilisation the new scientifically-informed century to come. For me the partial failure of the fulfilment of those promises signified in early Modernism reflects in how much of what followed may be experienced as something of a let-down, but nevertheless one with which, like Elliott Carter, I find it easier to identify than in earlier stages whose appreciation must in some sense require some sort of identification with the thoughts and feelings of times passed - presumably in some Platonic sense of values inhering in forms independent of time and era.

[vinteuil]

... in earlier stages whose appreciation must in some sense require some sort of identification with the thoughts and feelings of times passed - presumably in some Platonic sense of values inhering in forms independent of time and era.

... I like your thinking, and your language. Platonically, natch...

. .

[Serial_Apologist]

You can't get that from what FH said. There is the chance that FH loves Wagner. Where does that leave us?

Wagner's music prepares us for Mahler, who in turn prepares us for Shostakovitch, Zemlinsky, Berg, Britten, for example, and can only be appreciated in that light by the definition of hindsight. Taking the more complex on board leads to a re-reading of what leads up to it. Something like that.

[EdgeleyRob]

And the Walton VC often looks back to Sibelius's, especially in its first movement.

I know S_A,I'm at a loss to explain why I can't get JS

[EdgeleyRob]

I enjoy Rubbra's violin sonatas...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Violin-Sonatas-No-Edmund-Rubbra/dp/B00002MXU6/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1437137572&sr=1-1&keywords=rubbra+osostowicz

First heard his orchestral music live at a Prom in 1966(?).

There's a super Dutton cd of the quartets too,they are also well served on Naxos.

[EdgeleyRob]

It's more that they don't hold my attention than that I actively dislike them because where the music is going often seems a matter of indifference (to me). I feel I should like Rubbra's music because of his interest in Taoism, which we share, but, in his case to me the orchestration often seems under-considered, especially in the symphonies. Some of have described it as grey, to which Rubbra answered, "Well, perhaps I like grey"!

Arnold's music seems more and more derivative the more I hear of it - now Poulenc, now Sibelius, now Mahler, now VW, now Shosakovitch, now Walton: will the real Malcolm Arnold please stand up and stop winning oscars for admittedly smart imitations please? I feel much the same about the late Wretched Rodney Bin-It. And I think whoever said he was Britain's finest orchestrator was way off-mark.

Despite all the influences Arnold's music couldn't have been composed by anyone else,instantly recognisable to me.
I like a bit of grey music at times too !

[Beef Oven!]

Wagner's music prepares us for Mahler, who in turn prepares us for Shostakovitch, Zemlinsky, Berg, Britten, for example, and can only be appreciated in that light by the definition of hindsight. Taking the more complex on board leads to a re-reading of what leads up to it. Something like that.

You can dip into any form of music at any stage you want independently from what has gone before, or is to come. Music is appreciated in the moment, or later if you want. That's a matter for the listener. I disagree that music can only be appreciated in hindsight or even in a particular context.

[teamsaint]

You can dip into any form of music at any stage you want independently from what has gone before, or is to come. Music is appreciated in the moment, or later if you want. That's a matter for the listener. I disagree that music can only be appreciated in hindsight or even in a particular context.

correct. and the memory of it is "in the moment" too.

I can't say the any Rimsky Korsakov does anything for me. always seems hopelessly one dimensional, a bit like ( in folkrock) The Levellers seem.

I imagine I am wrong about old Rimmers though.

[Flosshilde]

I disagree that music can only be appreciated in hindsight or even in a particular context.

I don't think that's what S_A was saying -

"Wagner's music prepares us for Mahler, who in turn prepares us for Shostakovitch, Zemlinsky, Berg, Britten, for example, and can only be appreciated in that light by the definition of hindsight."