Phones in concerts

[Ein Heldenleben]

We intend recording (both video and audio) our York Festival of Ideas event next month, and have had to seek permission from all choir members.
Presumably if ever a concert is televised, all those partaking have to agree (part of their contracts?)?

Yes and doing that can be very time consuming . You supposed to do it even when it’s an amateur performer. I’ve got release forms signed by buskers. Then there is logging diversity against seven seperate categories- diversity both perceived and actual .

[Old Grumpy]

Narcophotophiles?

Translates to selfists?

[french frank]

Narcophotophiles?

Yes - I was just thinking of selfie!

[vinteuil]

I prefer Proust's approach : he stayed at home and listened (live!) to concerts over the phone - the théâtrophone

-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9%C3%A2trophone

.

[cloughie]

As it happens, I was at a lunchtime recital today where the introductory preamble included "Thank you for switching your mobile phones and other devices off for the duration of this concert".About 5 minutes in someone started filming on their phone, and after a muttered discussion at the back of the venue a person was dispatched to tap on the shoulder and ask him to desist.
What part of "switch", "phone" and "off" had not been understood I wondered.

Some people just have no style!

[Roger Webb]

I prefer Proust's approach : he stayed at home and listened (live!) to concerts over the phone - the théâtrophone

-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9%C3%A2trophone

.

Gabriel Pierné's Op. 36 maybe?

[edashtav]

Gabriel Pierné's Op. 36 maybe?

Have you been listening to Milstein and Milstein, Roger?

[vinteuil]

Gabriel Pierné's Op. 36 maybe?

Proust himself wrote (letter to Jacques Lacretelle, 20 April 1918) -

"Dans la mesure où la réalité m’a servi, mesure très faible à vrai dire, la petite phrase de cette Sonate, et je ne l’ai jamais dit à personne, est (pour commencer par la fin), dans la soirée Sainte-Euverte, la phrase charmante mais enfin médiocre d’une Sonate pour piano et violon de Saint-Saëns, musicien que je n’aime pas. (Je vous indiquerai exactement le passage qui vient plusieurs fois et qui était le triomphe de Jacques Thibaut.) Dans la même soirée un peu plus loin, je ne serais pas surpris qu’en parlant de la petite phrase j’eusse pensé à l’Enchantement du Vendredi Saint. Dans cette même soirée encore quand le piano et le violon gémissent comme deux oiseaux qui se répondent j’ai pensé à la Sonate de Franck surtout jouée par Enesco (dont le quatuor apparaît dans un des volumes suivants). Les trémolos qui couvrent la petite phrase chez les Verdurin m’ont été suggérés par un prélude de Lohengrin mais elle-même à ce moment-là par une chose de Schubert. Elle est dans la même soirée Verdurin un ravissant morceau de piano de Fauré."

"To the extent that I drew on reality, a very limited extent, in fact, the little phrase from this Sonata, and I’ve never told anyone this before, is, at the Saint-Euverte soirée (to begin at the end), the charming but mediocre theme from a Violin and Piano Sonata by Saint-Saëns, a composer I dislike. (I’ll show you the precise passage, which recurs several times and was a triumph for Jacques Thibaud.) At the same soirée, a little further on, it wouldn’t surprise me if, talking of the little phrase, I hadn’t been thinking of the Good Friday Spell. Still at the same soirée, when violin and piano lament like two birds calling to one another, I was thinking of Franck’s Sonata, especially as played by Enesco (Franck’s Quartet appears in later volumes). The tremolo passages played over the little phrase at the Verdurins’ were suggested by the Prelude to Lohengrin, but the phrase itself at that moment by a piece by Schubert. At the same Verdurin soirée, it becomes a ravishing piece by Fauré."

Proust, Selected Letters: Volume 4: 1918–1922, ed. by Philip Kolb and trans. by Joanna Kilmartin (London: HarperCollins, 2000), pp. 39–41.

(I note that he does not mention Pierné...)
.

[Roger Webb]

Proust himself wrote (letter to Jacques Lacretelle, 20 April 1918) -

"Dans la mesure où la réalité m’a servi, mesure très faible à vrai dire, la petite phrase de cette Sonate, et je ne l’ai jamais dit à personne, est (pour commencer par la fin), dans la soirée Sainte-Euverte, la phrase charmante mais enfin médiocre d’une Sonate pour piano et violon de Saint-Saëns, musicien que je n’aime pas. (Je vous indiquerai exactement le passage qui vient plusieurs fois et qui était le triomphe de Jacques Thibaut.) Dans la même soirée un peu plus loin, je ne serais pas surpris qu’en parlant de la petite phrase j’eusse pensé à l’Enchantement du Vendredi Saint. Dans cette même soirée encore quand le piano et le violon gémissent comme deux oiseaux qui se répondent j’ai pensé à la Sonate de Franck surtout jouée par Enesco (dont le quatuor apparaît dans un des volumes suivants). Les trémolos qui couvrent la petite phrase chez les Verdurin m’ont été suggérés par un prélude de Lohengrin mais elle-même à ce moment-là par une chose de Schubert. Elle est dans la même soirée Verdurin un ravissant morceau de piano de Fauré."

"To the extent that I drew on reality, a very limited extent, in fact, the little phrase from this Sonata, and I’ve never told anyone this before, is, at the Saint-Euverte soirée (to begin at the end), the charming but mediocre theme from a Violin and Piano Sonata by Saint-Saëns, a composer I dislike. (I’ll show you the precise passage, which recurs several times and was a triumph for Jacques Thibaud.) At the same soirée, a little further on, it wouldn’t surprise me if, talking of the little phrase, I hadn’t been thinking of the Good Friday Spell. Still at the same soirée, when violin and piano lament like two birds calling to one another, I was thinking of Franck’s Sonata, especially as played by Enesco (Franck’s Quartet appears in later volumes). The tremolo passages played over the little phrase at the Verdurins’ were suggested by the Prelude to Lohengrin, but the phrase itself at that moment by a piece by Schubert. At the same Verdurin soirée, it becomes a ravishing piece by Fauré."

Proust, Selected Letters: Volume 4: 1918–1922, ed. by Philip Kolb and trans. by Joanna Kilmartin (London: HarperCollins, 2000), pp. 39–41.

(I note that he does not mention Pierné...)
.

No he doesn't, but see the intriguing exploration below

https://open.qobuz.com/album/3760127223849

[Roger Webb]

Have you been listening to Milstein and Milstein, Roger?

Er, yes Ed. What do you think?

[edashtav]

Er, yes Ed. What do you think?

I doubt that Proust wanted us to identify the composer of his theme given the number of false leads he suggested. We're in a similar situation to Elgar's enigma mystery.

I do think that Gabriel Pierné's violin sonata is a strong runner. Charming but mediocre may be adjectives we are happy to apply to GP , particularly after we've heard his March of the Little Leaden Soldiers. However, he was a major French figure when Proust was active, giving, for instance, the first concert performance of IS's Firebird.

Here's a published review of Pierné's Violin Sonata after its performance at the Edinburgh International Festival:
'Perhaps Frenchmen cannot write "Sonata Form" according to the German textbooks, but, after all, why should they when they can overwhelm our senses with sonorities which steal over us like drugged perfumes?'

"Sonorities which steal over us like drugged perfumes": heady stuff and, just the ticket for MP.

I discount Saint-Saens, whose first sonata is backwards looking and almost neo-classical. Hahn is a possibility but his chamber music was little played. Fauré's first sonata is a worthy competitor and MP knew it well but coming from a raging heterosexual composer would it have been 'soul music'?

If I knew that GP was a gay man, his sonata would tick my box. But... I cannot establish Gabriel's sexual proclivities.

So, I'll join the Dragons' Den investors in saying ,"I'm out!" and leave a cloak of secrecy around our 'vinteuil'.

[kernelbogey]

To be clear - for those who may have chosen not to follow the link - Martha G's piece goes further than the issue of either just the CBSO, or indeed classical music concerts in general, to explore the issues of phone culture, generational differences - and, crucially, marketing folks' attempts to pander (as I would see it) to phone culture and its ramifications. She's worth a read, IMV!

I think these two paragraphs from Martha Gill's piece - BTW an opinion piece not a news report about the CBSO - seem to me in harmony with the arguments raised on the Forum lately about the schedule changes:

...The strict etiquette of the classical concert, like the opera and the ballet, has long been part of its essential atmosphere, its mystique. To experience this world for the first time is to be inducted into its codes and practices; in learning when to clap, what to wear, when not to distract everyone else, the newbie becomes the sophisticate. Times change, but the classical concert does not. Yet these sanctified institutions are now flinging all this aside to accommodate a culture that boringly suffices [surfaces?] everywhere else.... [my bold emphases]

But apparently CR3* would not agree with this.

I now rest my case (maybe )

[* every time I type this I think of R2D2]

[Old Grumpy]

To be clear - for those who may have chosen not to follow the link - Martha G's piece goes further than the issue of either just the CBSO, or indeed classical music concerts in general, to explore the issues of phone culture, generational differences - and, crucially, marketing folks' attempts to pander (as I would see it) to phone culture and its ramifications. She's worth a read, IMV!

Yes, just read it in my print copy - excellent article all round.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Proust himself wrote (letter to Jacques Lacretelle, 20 April 1918) -

"Dans la mesure où la réalité m’a servi, mesure très faible à vrai dire, la petite phrase de cette Sonate, et je ne l’ai jamais dit à personne, est (pour commencer par la fin), dans la soirée Sainte-Euverte, la phrase charmante mais enfin médiocre d’une Sonate pour piano et violon de Saint-Saëns, musicien que je n’aime pas. (Je vous indiquerai exactement le passage qui vient plusieurs fois et qui était le triomphe de Jacques Thibaut.) Dans la même soirée un peu plus loin, je ne serais pas surpris qu’en parlant de la petite phrase j’eusse pensé à l’Enchantement du Vendredi Saint. Dans cette même soirée encore quand le piano et le violon gémissent comme deux oiseaux qui se répondent j’ai pensé à la Sonate de Franck surtout jouée par Enesco (dont le quatuor apparaît dans un des volumes suivants). Les trémolos qui couvrent la petite phrase chez les Verdurin m’ont été suggérés par un prélude de Lohengrin mais elle-même à ce moment-là par une chose de Schubert. Elle est dans la même soirée Verdurin un ravissant morceau de piano de Fauré."

"To the extent that I drew on reality, a very limited extent, in fact, the little phrase from this Sonata, and I’ve never told anyone this before, is, at the Saint-Euverte soirée (to begin at the end), the charming but mediocre theme from a Violin and Piano Sonata by Saint-Saëns, a composer I dislike. (I’ll show you the precise passage, which recurs several times and was a triumph for Jacques Thibaud.) At the same soirée, a little further on, it wouldn’t surprise me if, talking of the little phrase, I hadn’t been thinking of the Good Friday Spell. Still at the same soirée, when violin and piano lament like two birds calling to one another, I was thinking of Franck’s Sonata, especially as played by Enesco (Franck’s Quartet appears in later volumes). The tremolo passages played over the little phrase at the Verdurins’ were suggested by the Prelude to Lohengrin, but the phrase itself at that moment by a piece by Schubert. At the same Verdurin soirée, it becomes a ravishing piece by Fauré."

Proust, Selected Letters: Volume 4: 1918–1922, ed. by Philip Kolb and trans. by Joanna Kilmartin (London: HarperCollins, 2000), pp. 39–41.

(I note that he does not mention Pierné...)
.

I’d always thought the “little phrase” was based on the Franck sonata . The little phrase looms much larger in the novel than the Madeleine that every one knows about. The treatment of your photo ,Vinteuil , in Swan’s Way is one of the more shocking moments in French literature.

[Roger Webb]

I doubt that Proust wanted us to identify the composer of his theme given the number of false leads he suggested. We're in a similar situation to Elgar's enigma mystery.

I do think that Gabriel Pierné's violin sonata is a strong runner. Charming but mediocre may be adjectives we are happy to apply to GP , particularly after we've heard his March of the Little Leaden Soldiers. However, he was a major French figure when Proust was active, giving, for instance, the first concert performance of IS's Firebird.

Here's a published review of Pierné's Violin Sonata after its performance at the Edinburgh International Festival:
'Perhaps Frenchmen cannot write "Sonata Form" according to the German textbooks, but, after all, why should they when they can overwhelm our senses with sonorities which steal over us like drugged perfumes?'

"Sonorities which steal over us like drugged perfumes": heady stuff and, just the ticket for MP.

I discount Saint-Saens, whose first sonata is backwards looking and almost neo-classical. Hahn is a possibility but his chamber music was little played. Fauré's first sonata is a worthy competitor and MP knew it well but coming from a raging heterosexual composer would it have been 'soul music'?

If I knew that GP was a gay man, his sonata would tick my box. But... I cannot establish Gabriel's sexual proclivities.

So, I'll join the Dragons' Den investors in saying ,"I'm out!" and leave a cloak of secrecy around our 'vinteuil'.

Yes Ed. my thoughts entirely - I only really dropped Pierné in, and the Milsteins' promotion of the idea, as a provocation. It seems obvious that Proust didn't want us to know what sonata was the model for Vinteuil's, if indeed there was just one. More likely it's the generality of the milieu, perhaps, that's described. Ravel's early Sonata posthume (1897) and Delius's Sonata in B Op. Posth. (1892) are also typical of the period....and not a million miles away from each other - Ravel was familiar with Delius's style, and even made piano reductions of Delius's opera Margot la Rouge!
They moved in different circles from Proust, Hahn etc but it's the general fin de circle 'feel' in these, and other composers of the time - for example Lili Boulanger's violin/piano works that evoke Paris of those times - did you know she shared a concert at Salle Pleyel with Delius? I wonder how they got on!

When in Paris I stay in the flat (in the 14th) of a relative of one of Pierné's publishers (Heugel) - they published many composers of the time - but I have soft spot for Pierné.

Latest obsession is with Jean Cras, do you know the Suite en duo, for flute and harp? Juliette Hurel made a lovely recording on Timpani 1C 1179.