Aimez-vous_Brahms?

[Roehre]

Saying Brahms is over cooked is about as daft as saying Mahler is overwrought .

Which of course is true in both cases [according to those who don't like their music]

[Barbirollians]

Which of course is true in both cases [according to those who don't like their music]

I recommend anyone who thinks they don't like Brahms to listen to Giulini's Chicago Brahms 4 - it is glorious and done to a turn .

[Roehre]

I recommend anyone who thinks they don't like Brahms to listen to Giulini's Chicago Brahms 4 - it is glorious and done to a turn .

Though I like that Giulini very much (as I do his Mahler 9, btw), I prefer Carlos Kleiber's

[Barbirollians]

the Kleiber is indeed a great performance but somehow I think a neophyte or a doubter might warm more to the Giulini .

Then again I recall a reviewer on Record Review in the1980s recalling how a Furtwangler account of the Brahms 1 had converted a class of Brahmsphobic music students .

[P. G. Tipps]

Excellent analogy.

Me neither.

However - not quite sure about Brahms being 'over-cooked' - some would say Bruckner is not only over-cooked, but 'done to death!' but, we all have our likes, dislikes, and so on..... (just to be clear - I like Brahms and Bruckner - am I normal? )

Actually, Bruckner was included in Mahler's description of Brahms's music. His reported comment is allegeged to have been something like ... 'Ah those old rascals Brahms & Bruckner ... the first's music is over-cooked whilst the other's hasn't even been put in the oven!'

I think I understand what he meant about Bruckner as well but it's that very 'rawness' which attracts many like myself to the music in the first place. It's also perfectly clear to the listener that, whatever Mahler thought or said, quite a bit of his music was inevitably influenced by both these 'old rascals'! Nevertheless, his alleged quote does contain at least a grain of truth, imv. (no pun intended!)

History is littered with great composer's 'dissing' the music of others. Rather than being surprised or shocked by this I'm actually relieved and indeed heartened to discover that these so-called 'gods' were perfectly human and could be just as jealously petty and ungracious as the rest of us!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Setting aside "comments" that a composer is "alleged" to have made (or "something like") and turning to the actual words that a composer has actually said, here's Xenakis:

I've always felt close to the Music of Brahms, closer than to any composer of the Nineteenth Century ... I'm attracted both by the complex form and by the melodic and rhythmic patterns of his compositions.

[P. G. Tipps]

Setting aside "comments" that a composer is "alleged" to have made (or "something like") and turning to the actual words that a composer has actually said, here's Xenakis:

I've always felt close to the Music of Brahms, closer than to any composer of the Nineteenth Century ... I'm attracted both by the complex form and by the melodic and rhythmic patterns of his compositions.

Good for Xenakis!

However, others may well take a different view of the music, however accomplished, and I'm always cautious about taking reported quotes at face-value. If Mahler did say anything like the words attributed to him I suspect he was doing a bit of teasing as well as pontificating.

Nevertheless one can recognise and appreciate the quality and worth of a painting, for instance, without actually 'liking' it. The same surely applies to music. We are all attracted to different things and people, and long may that truth continue!

The slightly arrogant notion that others should 'like' a piece of music because we ourselves think it is the bees-knees is patently absurd.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The slightly arrogant notion that others should 'like' a piece of music because we ourselves think it is the bees-knees is patently absurd.

I would omit the "slightly" from this statement, with which I otherwise wholeheartedly agree. Fortunately, it isn't a "notion" that has appeared on this Thread before the post in which you introduce it.

[Dave2002]

Seems that Brahms might be a bit like Marmite - you may either like his music or hate it - though perhaps a middle ground is possible.

I like much of it. OTOH - try Reger.

[P. G. Tipps]

Seems that Brahms might be a bit like Marmite - you may either like his music or hate it .. .

Quite ... but is Brahms particularly unique in this regard?

The same could be said for Bruckner, Mahler, Wagner and many other great composers.

Some can't even stand Mozart ... though I've never yet come across anyone who admits to disliking Beethoven.

Yet maybe someone, somewhere ... who knows, even on this forum? ...

[Conchis]

Quite ... but is Brahms particularly unique in this regard?

The same could be said for Bruckner, Mahler, Wagner and many other great composers.

Some can't even stand Mozart ... though I've never yet come across anyone who admits to disliking Beethoven.

Yet maybe someone, somewhere ... who knows, even on this forum? ...

Didn't Beecham admit to disliking most of Beethoven?

[verismissimo]

Didn't Beecham admit to disliking most of Beethoven?

Britten and Beethoven...?

[Daniel]

Saying Brahms is over cooked is about as daft as saying Mahler is overwrought .

Hi, I'll accept the daft tag, but whether or not anybody said it, I think over cooked or overwrought rather accurately describes the quality that shuts me out of much of Brahms music. And I can see why somebody who doesn't like Mahler might say the same about his music, though personally I can't get enough of it. As far as I'm concerned, with Mahler the more 'wroughting' the better, with Brahms the opposite.