Pitch Perfect?

[Pulcinella]

I found this comment from Jakub Józef Orliński in the March 2024 issue of BBC MM quite revealing, and not something I'd particularly considered before.

He's talking about the role of Orfeo in Gluck's opera.

"A fun fact is that in Paris I sang Orfeo at classical pitch, with A=430 (Hz). In San Francisco, at 440. And then we recorded it in 415."
"For listeners it might mean almost nothing, but for a singer it is a huge challenge. You've put the whole role in your voice, your body, in that certain pitch. Suddenly, if something is that little bit lower or higher, it's very difficult. Your muscle memory drags you up and down. I felt like I had to prepare the role three times."

[Ein Heldenleben]

I found this comment from Jakub Józef Orliński in the March 2024 issue of BBC MM quite revealing, and not something I'd particularly considered before.

He's talking about the role of Orfeo in Gluck's opera.

"A fun fact is that in Paris I sang Orfeo at classical pitch, with A=430 (Hz). In San Francisco, at 440. And then we recorded it in 415."
"For listeners it might mean almost nothing, but for a singer it is a huge challenge. You've put the whole role in your voice, your body, in that certain pitch. Suddenly, if something is that little bit lower or higher, it's very difficult. Your muscle memory drags you up and down. I felt like I had to prepare the role three times."

Interesting - I’d no idea it would be that tricky. 415 Hz is modern G# or Ab . Only a semitone difference but obviously significant for a singer. Without starting a huge debate that drift up a semitone has really not helped higher voices. I think there’s a Dresden orchestra tuning fork of the early 1800’s where A is around 415 so even “ classical” pitch might have been lower than that term suggests . I guess different countries , regions and even bands had their own ref point.

[mopsus]

I found this comment from Jakub Józef Orliński in the March 2024 issue of BBC MM quite revealing, and not something I'd particularly considered before.

He's talking about the role of Orfeo in Gluck's opera.

"A fun fact is that in Paris I sang Orfeo at classical pitch, with A=430 (Hz). In San Francisco, at 440. And then we recorded it in 415."
"For listeners it might mean almost nothing, but for a singer it is a huge challenge. You've put the whole role in your voice, your body, in that certain pitch. Suddenly, if something is that little bit lower or higher, it's very difficult. Your muscle memory drags you up and down. I felt like I had to prepare the role three times."

I don't sing at that level but I certainly know what he's on about. Notes will be pushed into or out of 'tricky' registers if you are at a different pitch. Moreover although I don't have absolute pitch (however my sense of pitch improved during lockdown - don't know if this was a common experience!) I have quite an acute sense of where notes lie based on how it feels to sing them. And so singing the same piece at a different pitch requires me to make a conscious adjustment. Doing it from memory, or singing a piece I know so well that the score is just an aide-mémoire for where to come in, is not too much of a problem for me, but reading off a score and singing at a different pitch to that written before I get to that stage of familiarity gives a feeling of mismatch.

[Pulcinella]

I don't sing at that level but I certainly know what he's on about. Notes will be pushed into or out of 'tricky' registers if you are at a different pitch. Moreover although I don't have absolute pitch (however my sense of pitch improved during lockdown - don't know if this was a common experience!) I have quite an acute sense of where notes lie based on how it feels to sing them. And so singing the same piece at a different pitch requires me to make a conscious adjustment. Doing it from memory, or singing a piece I know so well that the score is just an aide-mémoire for where to come in, is not too much of a problem for me, but reading off a score and singing at a different pitch to that written before I get to that stage of familiarity gives a feeling of mismatch.

That ABSOLUTELY (no pitch reference intended, though I think I have a sense of absolute rather that perfect pitch!) chimes with my experience.
If I'm told we're transposing a piece, I have to make a real conscious effort to think of it being in the new notation.
So I suppose that in a sense I HAD considered it before, but not quite in the way he describes it.

[smittims]

I think singers have particular notes which suit their voice better than others: Peter Pears, for instance, seeemd to produce E above middle C particularly well, and Britten uses this note quite a bit in the parts he wrote for him. Such a singer having to transpose a part would fnd the voice having to adjust, and I can imagine the discomfort that will produce.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I don't sing at that level but I certainly know what he's on about. Notes will be pushed into or out of 'tricky' registers if you are at a different pitch. Moreover although I don't have absolute pitch (however my sense of pitch improved during lockdown - don't know if this was a common experience!) I have quite an acute sense of where notes lie based on how it feels to sing them. And so singing the same piece at a different pitch requires me to make a conscious adjustment. Doing it from memory, or singing a piece I know so well that the score is just an aide-mémoire for where to come in, is not too much of a problem for me, but reading off a score and singing at a different pitch to that written before I get to that stage of familiarity gives a feeling of mismatch.

It’s funny because on another thread there’s discussion of how much easier choirs find it to sing a simple Carol in tune in GFlat rather than the G major it was written in and indeed key the choir would have learnt it in.

[Pulcinella]

It’s funny because on another thread there’s discussion of how much easier choirs find it to sing a simple Carol in tune in GFlat rather than the G major it was written in and indeed key the choir would have learnt it in.

Once in royal David's city?
It's odd because sometimes, if I'm just given a note, I can sing away (relatively) happily, but being told we were singing in G flat rather than G would be more awkward.
I wonder what key JJO thought he was singing in, for each of his performances?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Once in royal David's city?
It's odd because sometimes, if I'm just given a note, I can sing away (relatively) happily, but being told we were singing in G flat rather than G would be more awkward.
I wonder what key JJO thought he was singing in, for each of his performances?

Yes it might well have been that . I can’t remember the thread but quite a few singers said in Gflat it was easier to sign in tune and not just because it lay lower as it were. Yes G flat is a sort of psychological barrier isn’t it ?
There is something in this muscle memory argument though . I’ve a transcription of the famous Schubert G flat piano impromptu but it’s in G. It should be easier to play as your fingers have longer levers to work with the white notes and they are also wider so easier to depress cleanly. But playing it feels very weird. It also sounds duller perhaps because they are so few pieces in Gflat and so many in G major.
Incidentally against the muscle memory argument was Myra Hess’ party trick . She could play the very difficult Chopin F maj Op 10 etude* in any key. That is a quite astonishingly difficult thing to do.
* might have been the C major Op 10 no 1 but if anything that’s even trickier!

[Pulcinella]

Yes it might well have been that . I can’t remember the thread but quite a few singers said in Gflat it was easier to sign in tune and not just because it lay lower as it were. Yes G flat is a sort of psychological barrier isn’t it ?
There is something in this muscle memory argument though . I’ve a transcription of the famous Schubert G flat piano impromptu but it’s in G. It should be easier to play as your fingers have longer levers to work with the white notes and they are also wider so easier to depress cleanly. But playing it feels very weird. It also sounds duller perhaps because they are so few pieces in Gflat and so many in G major.
Incidentally against the muscle memory argument was Myra Hess’ party trick . She could play the very difficult Chopin F maj Op 10 etude* in any key. That is a quite astonishingly difficult thing to do.
* might have been the C major Op 10 no 1 but if anything that’s even trickier!

The King's Christmas Eve broadcast thread:

https://www.for3.org/forums/forum/classical-forum/the-choir/1294009-king-s-college-cambridge-l-radio-4-4-p-m-25-xii-23

[mopsus]

I think it was Once in Royal. I think I wouldn't have problems singing it in any key within my range - firstly, because I just know how the tune goes and secondly, because I've sung it in the past in a variety of keys (some hymnbooks have it in F major; outdoor informal carol singing sessions may pitch it in all sorts of keys, most of them a bit low for me).

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think it was Once in Royal. I think I wouldn't have problems singing it in any key within my range - firstly, because I just know how the tune goes and secondly, because I've sung it in the past in a variety of keys (some hymnbooks have it in F major; outdoor informal carol singing sessions may pitch it in all sorts of keys, most of them a bit low for me).

On those informal Carol sessions do you find the pitch veers downwards in direct proportion to mulled wine consumption ?

[mopsus]

On those informal Carol sessions do you find the pitch veers downwards in direct proportion to mulled wine consumption ?

Actually I find that alcohol consumption tends to push pitch upwards in my case, but even 1 unit rapidly sets me on diminishing returns when it comes to tuning, rhythmic precision etc.

But I've never consumed mulled wine or any other alcoholic beverage when going outdoor carol-singing. Perhaps I've just done it with the wrong people. The occupational hazard is when you get pitches set by a heavy smoker who never sings at any other time - on occasion I've found myself an octave higher than the pitch intended by the leader.

[rauschwerk]

"A fun fact is that in Paris I sang Orfeo at classical pitch, with A=430 (Hz). In San Francisco, at 440. And then we recorded it in 415."
"For listeners it might mean almost nothing, but for a singer it is a huge challenge. You've put the whole role in your voice, your body, in that certain pitch. Suddenly, if something is that little bit lower or higher, it's very difficult. Your muscle memory drags you up and down. I felt like I had to prepare the role three times."

I'm surprised that at sixth of a semitone (440 to 430) would make a noticeable difference, but can well believe that a semitone would - especially to a thoroughly trained singer, even one without absolute pitch. I do have that gift and sometimes find it a mixed blessing. I have sung in a cappella consorts for many decades and used to be most disturbed when asked to transpose even a semitone from the copy. However, in about 1990 I began to sing performances with orchestra at A 415. At first I used to look ahead for entries and tell myself to transpose them down. With time, however, that became unnecessary. So my absolute pitch has become less absolute with time. I believe the same happened to Benjamin Britten.

[mikealdren]

Not sure about singers but for orchestral players the difference is enormous. One of my nephews plays professionally in Norway where they play at 443, when he comes back to the UK he says it takes some time to re-adjust to 440.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Not sure about singers but for orchestral players the difference is enormous. One of my nephews plays professionally in Norway where they play at 443, when he comes back to the UK he says it takes some time to re-adjust to 440.

Is that because he has a very acute sense of pitch? A 3 Hz difference would be inaudible to most people except possibly as “beats” during piano tuning. It would also lie well within a string players vibrato range. I also wonder how many string sections or orchestras can tune to that degree of accuracy - it’s a tiny fraction of a semitone - about an eighth of one at 440 hz.