Literary Models in Haydn's, Beethoven's and Schubert's Compositional Processes.

[Mandryka]

https://www.discogs.com/master/2125792-Franz-Schubert-Wiener-Symphoniker-Nikolaus-Harnoncourt-Symphonie-Nr-8-H-moll-Unvollendete-Zauberharf/image/SW1hZ2U6NDgwOTc2MzI=?format=CD

Harnoncourt, in his essay for this CD, says that Haydn told Carpini that he made up stories before writing symphonies. And he gives as an example Haydn's "well known 'America Symphony'" (in the German text Auswanderergeschichten.)

He also says that Beethoven had literary models for (all?some?) of his piano sonatas, and some of them were indicated in titles to various movements.

Is this a joke? What is Haydn's Auswanderergeschichten Symphony? What are the literary titles of of the movements of Beethoven's piano sonatas?

[AuntDaisy]

No idea, but the Discogs CD version has the booklet text in German, English & French (click on "More images") - which might help others.

https://www.discogs.com/release/7734477-Franz-Schubert-Symphony-No-8-h-moll-D-759-Unvollendete-Ouvert%C3%BCre-zum-Zauberspiel-Die-Zauberharfe-D-

The French translation is "histoire de l'émigrant".

[AuntDaisy]

From a scan on Archive.org of a French translation of "Haydn, sa vie, ses ouvrages, ses voyages et ses aventures", I guess that Carpini's version is on pages 94 & 95 is below.
The description sounds Sturm und Drang -esque.

"Après ces premiers préparatifs matériels Haydn commençait son travail par composer une espèce de roman ou canevas, sur lequel il pût appliquer des idées et des nuances musicales. Il échauffait ainsi son imagination et la dirigeait avec ordre vers un but arrêté. Quelquefois il se figurait un ami pauvre et charge d’une nombreuse famille, s’embarquant pour l’Amérique afin de s’enrichir. Des divers accidens du voyage, il faisait le sujet de la symphonie. Elle commençait à l’embarquement. Un vent favorable caresse doucement les flots et fait gonfler les voiles du navire , qui abandonne majestueusement le port, tandis que la famille désolée fait retentir la plage de ses gémissemens , auxquels se mêlent les souhaits de bonheur des amis. Le vaisseau traverse heureusement les mers, et aborde enfin en des contrées lointaines et inconnues. La symphonie parvenue à peu près à la moitié de sa course , fait entendre des sons barbares , tandis que son allure bizarre peut rappeler les danses des sauvages. Le navigateur, devenu possesseur de riches marchandises, déploie les voiles de nouveau, et vogue vers sa patrie. Ici revient le premier motif de la symphonie, mais bientôt la mer se soulève , le ciel s’obscurcit , une tempête furieuse bouleverse les tons et les accords."

Which Google reliably translates to:
"After these first material preparations Haydn began his work by composing a species novel or canvas, on which he could apply musical ideas and nuances. He was warming up thus his imagination and directed it with order towards a fixed goal. Sometimes he imagined a poor friend and caretaker of a large family, embarking for America to enrich himself. Of the various accidents of the trip, he was the subject of the symphony. She was starting to embark- is lying. A favorable wind gently caresses the waves and swells the sails of the ship, which abandons majestically gives the port, while the desolate family makes the beach resound with its moans- seeds, in which the wishes of happiness of friends. The ship happily crosses sows the seas, and finally lands in countries distant and unknown. The symphony arrived about halfway through its travel, sounds barbaric sounds, while its bizarre appearance can recall the dances of the savages. The navigation tor, become possessor of rich merchandise, spreads the sails again, and sails towards its country. Here returns the first motif of the sym-voice, but soon the sea rises, the sky darkens, a furious storm upsets the tones and chords."

Never was traduttore, traditore more true

[Ein Heldenleben]

I’ve read quite a few books on Beethoven and his piano sonatas. I’m not sure it’s accurate to say that Beethoven always had “literary models “ in mind . Some of the sonata titles were given by publishers. The one sonata that does have an explicit title and obvious programme is Les Adieux / Das Lebewohl which mirrors the real life experience of Archduke Rudolph - forced to leave Vienna by the French . The following sonata Op. 90 was long supposed to have a programme with the first movement a dialogue between Head and heart and the second a conversation with the beloved - all based on the real life love affair of a friend . Unfortunately it now appears Anton Schindler - the source of the story - just made it up. Beethoven sonatas sometimes lend themselves to “literary “ interpretations - one has a Marcia Funebre - but when you delve down the “story” is nearly always a musical one.

[smittims]

It's interesting , but I'm always wary of these new theories. Harnoncourt was an exception in being very knowledgeable about the music he wrote about. Other writers often strike me as too eager to be 'the one person with the truth' to be quite credible. Even so, I've never agreed with the theory that Mozart's last three symphonies are meant to be a wordless Mass. While some composers did indeed have an extra-musical story in mind when composing an 'abstract' instrumental work (Rachmaninov for instance) I think it's going too far to suggest that it was an invariable practice.

[richardfinegold]

Berlioz was the most programmatic of the great composers, imp

[Mandryka]

The claim I would like to get to the bottom of is that "Beethoven, at one time, intended to indicate the literary models of his piano sonatas by giving titles to the various movements, but in the end he abandoned the idea." Harnoncourt mentions Scherring's work on this positively.

He also says that Scherring a link between Schubert's story "The Dream" and the Unfinished Symphony, which he says inspired his performance.