Announcements and back-announcements

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  • kernelbogey
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 5745

    Announcements and back-announcements

    Traditionally, as it were, Radio 3 announcements (what we're playing next) and back announcements (what we've just played) consisted of composer, work and artists. Artists, if a chamber work, would include the name of the ensemble, plus supernumeraries if any (The Amadeus Quartet with Heinrich Schiff, Cello); for orchestral works both orchestra and conductor would be credited.

    My R3 listening these days is proscribed and my main source of data is Through the Night, perhaps a special case. However my impression is that this tradition is crumbling a little. This is not to complain, so much, as to raise an important issue in the hope that both apparatchiks and continuity announcers may, occasionally, read the views expressed on the forum.

    The announcement (as described above) often gives way to something like 'And here's Schubert, writing in a different kind of three-four time' - and nothing else. Or there is more information than this about the work, but nothing on the performers.

    With back announcements, I have the impression that artists are not always credited in full: for example, the orchestra credited but no conductor.

    With R3 output directed increasingly to casual listening, it seems to me important that a full (traditional) announcement and back-announcement should be maintained whenever possible, so that if the listener has to check out (eg to leave for work) or switches on in the middle of a piece, the full performance data are available.

    In principle it seems to me that artists should always be credited in full: they are the ones, after all, providing the musical experience. On the other hand - here I'm thinking of TTN - do we need to know the names of the four Rumanian musicians, whom we've never heard of, and likely will never come across again?

  • smittims
    Full Member
    • Aug 2022
    • 4141

    #2
    I too have been dissatisfied with some announcements. Certainly the content and style has changed with what seems to me a change in R3's emphasis.

    Fifty years ago a good deal of airtime was devoted to playing commercial records, both new releases and classic recordings of the past, often of entire works, complete operas, etc. As late as 1998 I heard a new Cd set of Cosi fan Tutte complete on a Thiursday afternoon. Today the aim seem to be to reflect today's music-making around the world, with the bulk of airtime given to live concerts , recent festivals, and extracts from recent CDs by specific artists. In other words, the purpose is to show what musicians today are doing rather than put the music first. But this is being presented in a way akin to pop music. Instead of announcing symphony in c by such a composer, and telling us somethig about its history and structure, it's 'here's a track from their latest album, and it's part of a symphony by xxx', or 'here's Murray Perahia's take on xxx'.

    It would be easy to have a well-informed music graduate with a good microphone voice telling us what is played and by whom, and they'd probably be willing to do that for a modest salary. But the BBC seem to prefer star newsreaders and gardeners who know nothing aboiut classical music, giggling amongst themelves and half the time getting it wrong. It's a sign of the times, I'm afraid. TV 'documentaries', instead of giving us the facts clearly, have to have a comedian tripping over things. I can't see it getting better in my lifetime.

    Comment

    • Sir Velo
      Full Member
      • Oct 2012
      • 3227

      #3
      Wasn't there one of those listener focus groups a while back which found that the R3 presentation was offputting and "unfriendly"? The fact that none of those interviewed either listened, or more importantly, would ever listen to R3 was irrelevant. The presentation needed to be made more cuddly and "inclusive", hence wot we got now, innit?

      Comment

      • AuntDaisy
        Host
        • Jun 2018
        • 1635

        #4
        For Through the Night, I'd also like to know where & when the piece was played, particularly if it was from, say, Herne Early Music Days Festival. In addition to musicians, more information about movements / titles would also help.
        Years ago, we used to be treated to this information... I think you're right, kernelbogey, about crumbling a little.

        Here's one item from last night's TTN listing
        02:50 AM Franz Schubert (1797-1828); Des Teufels Lustschloss - Overture; Polish Radio Symphony Orchestra, Miroslaw Blaszczyk (conductor)​

        But, other listings sources (e.g. Notturno 18/1/2008 etc.) have more information - so it was probably available to the TTN listings compilers / script writers:
        Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra In Katowice, Miroslaw Blaszczyk (Conductor) (Recorded 28 April 1995 At the Grzegorz Fitelberg Concert Hall) - Overture To "Des Teufels Lustschloss" (the Devil's Castle) Opera

        Comment

        • AuntDaisy
          Host
          • Jun 2018
          • 1635

          #5
          ... and here's another example from last night's TTN listing:
          02:03 AM Francis Poulenc (1899-1963) Sept chansons Swedish Radio Choir, Par Fridberg (conductor)​
          Notturno 22/5/2008, 24/5/2012, etc.
          Swedish Radio Choir, Pär Fridberg (Conductor) (Recorded 23 January 1999 At Nybrokajen 11, Stockholm) - 7 Chansons, For Mixed Choir a Cappella (1936) (La Blanche Neige (Apollinaire); a Peine Défigurée (Paul Eluard); Par Une Nuit Nouvelle (Eluard); Tous Les Droits (Eluard); Belle Et Ressemblante (Eluard); Marie (Apollinaire); Luire (Eluard) (Appl)
          Komponist: Poulenc, Francis (Jean Marcel) (1899-1963)
          But, in this case, the old style BBC Notturno page also had this information, e.g. from 26/3/2005:
          00:31AM
          Poulenc, Francis (Jean Marcel) (1899-1963)
          7 chansons, for mixed choir a cappella (1936) (La blanche neige [Apollinaire]; A peine défigurée [Paul Eluard]; Par une nuit nouvelle [Eluard]; Tous les droits [Eluard]; Belle et ressemblante [Eluard]; Marie [Apollinaire]; Luire [Eluard]
          Swedish Radio Choir, Pär Fridberg (conductor) [recorded 23 January 1999 at Nybrokajen 11, Stockholm]​

          Comment

          • french frank
            Administrator/Moderator
            • Feb 2007
            • 30283

            #6
            I can only 'process' (!) what people say here: I'm not qualified to express an informed opinion, but I wonder if the simple answer is that information from 'focus' groups (focused on whom?) and general market research indicates that the audience Radio 3 is now targeting isn't that interested in information about what is being played i.e. being educated. They just want to hear lots of music. I think that would apply to CFM too.

            Pop song = name of performer, title of song (where name of performer is probably unnecessary as title of song (also probably unnecessary)? Or are they now told who composed the music, who wrote the words, who was actually playing the instrument(s) on the recording &c? NB I don't know the answer to that: it's no more than conjecture.
            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

            Comment

            • AuntDaisy
              Host
              • Jun 2018
              • 1635

              #7
              Originally posted by french frank View Post
              I can only 'process' (!) what people say here: I'm not qualified to express an informed opinion, but I wonder if the simple answer is that information from 'focus' groups (focused on whom?) and general market research indicates that the audience Radio 3 is now targeting isn't that interested in information about what is being played i.e. being educated. They just want to hear lots of music. I think that would apply to CFM too.

              Pop song = name of performer, title of song (where name of performer is probably unnecessary as title of song (also probably unnecessary)? Or are they now told who composed the music, who wrote the words, who was actually playing the instrument(s) on the recording &c? NB I don't know the answer to that: it's no more than conjecture.
              You're probably right, SOUNDS is certainly more geared up for pop songs than Classical music - example image below from today's TTN.

              The BBC are also providing Spotify / Apple Music links for some of the pieces - but not necessarily to the correct performance! The Spotify Poulenc link was to a Naxos version with the Elora Festival Singers & Noel Edison. The Apple Poulenc link to a version with George Bennette & the Modern Madrigal Singers.
              Could you end up with Liberace's Goldberg Variations rather than Trevor Pinnock's?
              I wonder if Auntie gets a referral / advertising fee?

              Comment

              • Andrew Slater
                Full Member
                • Mar 2007
                • 1792

                #8
                Yes, I've noticed the Spotify / Apple Music links problem. I think it works better for pop songs: my code actually generates a weekly CSV list of the links, on the back of a request from somebody making a database of the links for Radio Cymru 2. I've never taken the trouble to check whether the correct link has been used when it has been available, or whether a 'stock' link is always used. If anybody would like to do that, the files are all there .....

                Comment

                • Nick Armstrong
                  Host
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 26533

                  #9
                  Originally posted by AuntDaisy View Post
                  You're probably right, SOUNDS is certainly more geared up for pop songs than Classical music - example image below from today's TTN.
                  Agreed - I’ve got over the irritation of this by always having this page available as a tab on my browser

                  This is the daily broadcast schedule for BBC Radio 3


                  to consult if ever I want chapter and verse about what is being played. TTN always seems to be fully itemised. Other programmes less so - the afternoon schedules are often next to useless
                  "...the isle is full of noises,
                  Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                  Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                  Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                  Comment

                  • Pulcinella
                    Host
                    • Feb 2014
                    • 10921

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Nick Armstrong View Post



                    .... the afternoon schedules are often next to useless
                    That good, eh?

                    Comment

                    • AuntDaisy
                      Host
                      • Jun 2018
                      • 1635

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Nick Armstrong View Post
                      Agreed - I’ve got over the irritation of this by always having this page available as a tab on my browser
                      This is the daily broadcast schedule for BBC Radio 3

                      to consult if ever I want chapter and verse about what is being played. TTN always seems to be fully itemised. Other programmes less so - the afternoon schedules are often next to useless
                      Useful link, thanks Nick.
                      I use the weekly listings - that way I can decide what not to listen to at a stroke; and possibly find the odd gem. It also misses out the vacuous eye-candy images.

                      Comment

                      • Nick Armstrong
                        Host
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 26533

                        #12
                        Originally posted by AuntDaisy View Post
                        Useful link, thanks Nick.
                        I use the weekly listings - that way I can decide what not to listen to at a stroke; and possibly find the odd gem.
                        https://www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl8t/this_week
                        Also useful, thanks - I didn’t know about that weekly format.

                        "...the isle is full of noises,
                        Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                        Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                        Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                        Comment

                        • french frank
                          Administrator/Moderator
                          • Feb 2007
                          • 30283

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Nick Armstrong View Post

                          Also useful, thanks - I didn’t know about that weekly format.
                          Ah, one of those members who never looks at the forum homepage, under Useful Links [Schedule]
                          It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                          Comment

                          • Nick Armstrong
                            Host
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 26533

                            #14
                            Originally posted by french frank View Post

                            Ah, one of those members who never looks at the forum homepage, under Useful Links [Schedule]
                            You rang, ma’am?
                            "...the isle is full of noises,
                            Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                            Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                            Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                            Comment

                            • french frank
                              Administrator/Moderator
                              • Feb 2007
                              • 30283

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Nick Armstrong View Post

                              You rang, ma’am?
                              Black, no sugar please, James
                              It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                              Comment

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