Bach Violin chords and the German curved bow.

[Bryn]

The Sony Baroque Masterworks box arrived today and I went straight to what I thought was going to be the complete Violin Partitas and Sonatas played by Rudolf Gähler (using a modern version of a German curved bow and thus avoiding unmarked arpeggiation of the chords.). However, despite being described as "Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin", what is in fact included in the box is just one sonata (BWV1003) and two partitas (BWV 1004 and 1006). A bit miffed as the misuse of the plural re. the sonata, I went in search of alternatives. All six works as played by Rudolf Gähler are still available, but since he used a modern beefed up violin, I decided not to get the double album, but instead opted for the free downloads (128kbps mp3s) of the old Telmanyi recordings.

Does anyone here know of any HIPP recordings using the German curved bow with a violin set up as it might have been in Bach's time?

[Dave2002]

The Sony Baroque Masterworks box arrived today ...

Which Sony box was that one?

An interesting site of baroque recordings emerged - http://www.baroquemusiclibrary.com/ - donate ware "free" downloads.

[richardfinegold]

Which Sony box was that one?

An interesting site of baroque recordings emerged - http://www.baroquemusiclibrary.com/ - donate ware "free" downloads.

Many years ago I had a set on lp by the Roumanian Violinist Sergiu Luca. It was advertised as using a Baroque bow from the 17th Century. It was a great set but I don't know if he used the bow you mention or whether the lps were ever digitalized.

[Bryn]

Many years ago I had a set on lp by the Roumanian Violinist Sergiu Luca. It was advertised as using a Baroque bow from the 17th Century. It was a great set but I don't know if he used the bow you mention or whether the lps were ever digitalized.

Thanks for that reminder, Richard. I bought that set on LP a good few decades ago. An Internet search suggests he might well have used a curved bow. I see the recording is available for download from QOBUZ, so I will investigate.

Hmm. Turns out he arpeggiated all the chords, whatever type of bow he used.

[Bryn]

Which Sony box was that one?

amazon.co.uk ASIN: B001CBX2RO

[Dave2002]

amazon.co.uk ASIN: B001CBX2RO

Ah - that's the one I have already. Have you found any really interesting CDs in that box? I'll revisit it later on in the month, perhaps.

Actually - if you've just got the box, you won't have sampled much yet. Feel free to answer in about a week!

[richardfinegold]

Thanks for that reminder, Richard. I bought that set on LP a good few decades ago. An Internet search suggests he might well have used a curved bow. I see the recording is available for download from QOBUZ, so I will investigate.

Hmm. Turns out he arpeggiated all the chords, whatever type of bow he used.

Interesting. That set was my first exposure to the music and it always seemed "lighter" than subsequent versions

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hmm. Turns out he arpeggiated all the chords, whatever type of bow he used.

Yes - they're also available on youTube. As are some of Emil Telmanyi's recordings - not merely an arched bow, but the "Vega Bach" bow, with bow hair sufficiently "loose" to play any or all four strings simultaneously. I think it sounds dreadful - whether this is the result of the bow, or the performer's rather corpulent playing, or both I'm not sure!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xUv-uphKkU

[Bryn]

Yes - they're also available on youTube. As are some of Emil Telmanyi's recordings - not merely an arched bow, but the "Vega Bach" bow, with bow hair sufficiently "loose" to play any or all four strings simultaneously. I think it sounds dreadful - whether this is the result of the bow, or the performer's rather corpulent playing, or both I'm not sure!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xUv-uphKkU

My understanding is that the bow tension is adjusted in real time by the player, tighter when playing a single string and looser as more strings are covered. I was not much taken with the Telmanyi recordings either. I would, however, like to hear the works played by a modern HIPP exponent using a curved bow to obviate the need for arpeggiation.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My understanding is that the bow tension is adjusted in real time by the player, tighter when playing a single string and looser as more strings are covered.

Ah, yes - that would explain the unusual thumb position in the photographs of Telmanyi's right hand.

I would, however, like to hear the works played by a modern HIPP exponent using a curved bow to obviate the need for arpeggiation.

[Bryn]

Ah, yes - that would explain the unusual thumb position in the photographs of Telmanyi's right hand.

Hmm, this looks interesting (the relevant section is a few paragraphs down). It's a long time since I bought the Luca LPs and I must admit I do not recall his arguments against the playing of the chords as chords.

[richardfinegold]

Hmm, this looks interesting (the relevant section is a few paragraphs down). It's a long time since I bought the Luca LPs and I must admit I do not recall his arguments against the playing of the chords as chords.

You are whetting my desire to hear the Luca set again.
There are several second hand lp stores within a few miles of me. Unfortunately I can't drive or ride the bike as yet but I can dragoon my adult son living in my basement to hit a few places tomorrow.

[LeMartinPecheur]

My understanding is that the bow tension is adjusted in real time by the player, tighter when playing a single string and looser as more strings are covered. I was not much taken with the Telmanyi recordings either. I would, however, like to hear the works played by a modern HIPP exponent using a curved bow to obviate the need for arpeggiation.

My introduction to the Bach Sonatas & Partitas was a Supraphon LP set recorded c.1973 by Bretislav Novotny, in the 1950s leader of the Prague String Quartet. In its booklet there is a long essay on what Bach might have expected from a contemporary German violinist using a German bow of that time, as Bryn describes. Novotny himself then provides another essay with printed musical examples on how he plays them on a modern violin to realise what he takes to be their proper full polyphony with minimum resort to arpeggiation.

Anybody else have this set? I don't think I've ever seen a review. (Oops, looks like I haven't played any of it since 1999 so I won't attempt one myself right now)

[Bryn]

My introduction to the Bach Sonatas & Partitas was a Supraphon LP set recorded c.1973 by Bretislav Novotny, in the 1950s leader of the Prague String Quartet. In its booklet there is a long essay on what Bach might have expected from a contemporary German violinist using a German bow of that time, as Bryn describes. Novotny himself then provides another essay with printed musical examples on how he plays them on a modern violin to realise what he takes to be their proper full polyphony with minimum resort to arpeggiation.

Anybody else have this set? I don't think I've ever seen a review. (Oops, looks like I haven't played any of it since 1999 so I won't attempt one myself right now)

Thanks for that:

[Tony Halstead]

The 'Baroque curved bow' is an unhistorical absurdity.
There is no documentary evidence for it, neither any organological evidence. It remains an unconvincing 20th century experiment dating from the very early years of 'hipp'.
I have owned the 'Turnabout' LP box set of Sergiu Luca Bach recordings ever since they were first released and I do think that they are 'right up there' with the very finest 21st century recordings. I'll go so far as to say that IMV his D minor Chaconne has never been surpassed, let alone equalled, as a 'gut-strung' recording.