Hornspieler and the Threebees

[antongould]

I wondered about this, too - and had a few rather uncharitable thoughts about Bristolians - but then wondered about the date HS mentions: 2nd Jan. In itself a bit close to "the Festivities", perhaps - and then there was the particularly bad weather that month which may have had an influence ("the coldest January [in parts of the South East] since 1963; "the number of days with snow lying ... as much as three times [the average] in parts of the South and East") - the tickets might have been sold, but people unable to get to the concert - or, once there, concerned that they may not have been able to get back and so left during the interval?

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/l/d/Jan1985.pdf

You are Morse and I claim my £5.......

[MrGongGong]

You are Morse and I claim my £5.......

" what you consider to be whimsical contributions but which others find irritatiting"?

(not irritating IMV)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You are Morse and I claim my £5.......

More Lewes, bonny lad

(Actually, Lewes is nowhere near Bristol, is it )

I also had a glance at the BBC genome to see if what the Beeb was offering on Tippett's 80th birthday (which might also have influenced whether people decided to stay at home) - Knussen's Iggledy-Piggledy Pop (BBC2) an act of Messiaen's St Francis of Assissi and Walton's Violin Concerto (R3)! I wonder if C4 had anything more directly celebratory - they did really good Music documentaries in the first ten years of their/its existence.

[Hornspieler]

Leaving aside the question of whether living 30 miles from somewhere constitutes being a native of that place, there is something very odd about this recollection.

In 1985, Tippett was at the height of his fame and celebrity; the greatest living English composer of the day, whose works were premiered by among others, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, under Solti. Other champions included Colin Davis; the Lindsay Quartet; John Ogdon etc. I recall several films made on Tippett at the time, including a memorable BBC documentary, Songs of Experience in which the composer was shown at home at Nockett's Hill with its commanding view of the Vale of Pewsey. Here surrounded by a court of admiring musicians (including a young Craig Ogden) Tippett gave a memorable interview on all aspects of his craft.

If this concert failed to sell out then one maybe has to look at the promoters and the job they did. As this from the 1985 Radio Times reminds us:

Errata and Addenda Thank you Sir Velo for a very helpful post.

80th Birthday? 1985?

It was, of course the 60th birthday celebration in 1965 I left the BSO in 1966 and finally gave up horn playing in 1973 when I joined the BBC in Bristol. That narrative will come later in these posts)

Yes, I can see that the connection with Bath, only a few miles away and with Bristol University would have been the reason for staging this tribute to a great British composer; but greatest?
Well, Britten might have been a bit upset at the time.
I never use superlatives - someone will always differ in their opinion and it's not worth the squabble.

fhg also picked this up:

I wondered about this, too - and had a few rather uncharitable thoughts about Bristolians - but then wondered about the date HS mentions: 2nd Jan. In itself a bit close to "the Festivities", perhaps - and then there was the particularly bad weather that month which may have had an influence ("the coldest January [in parts of the South East] since 1963; "the number of days with snow lying ... as much as three times [the average] in parts of the South and East") - the tickets might have been sold, but people unable to get to the concert - or, once there, concerned that they may not have been able to get back and so left during the interval?

Sir Michael was born on 2nd January 1902 - hence the Birthday commemoration.

I do welcome corrections to any inaccuracies in my accounts (and reactions) to events that occurred more than 50 years ago. It is as important to me and my descendants as to anyone else that I get these things right.

The BBC Training Orchestra is coming in my next post. Look out for more controversy!)

[Sir Velo]

Yes, I can see that the connection with Bath, only a few miles away and with Bristol University would have been the reason for staging this tribute to a great British composer; but greatest?
Well, Britten might have been a bit upset at the time.

Well, by 1985, Britten had been dead for nine years, so unless he was turning in his grave I don't think it could have bothered him that much! Walton had also died three years previously, so I think one can justifiably use that epithet in terms of his standing in the musical firmament, at that time.

I never use superlatives - someone will always differ in their opinion and it's not worth the squabble.

Perhaps, I should have put "greatest" in speechmarks to underline the consensus view. Of course, Birtwistle and Max would have had claims from a purely musical point of view at that time, as would a host of others. However, as a name in the public domain Tippett held a high place in British musical life at that time.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

80th Birthday? 1985?

It was, of course the 60th birthday celebration in 1965

Ah! That makes a difference - Tippett's popularity really only began to take off in that year (coinciding with the publication of Ian Kemp's Symposium). A half-empty hall in the winter of 1965 is more likely.

fhg also picked this up:
Sir Michael was born on 2nd January 1902 - hence the Birthday commemoration.

- I should have made clear that I was "wondering" about the weather conditions on 2nd Jan, not why they'd chosen that date. (But 1905, HS.)

[Hornspieler]

Ah! That makes a difference - Tippett's popularity really only began to take off in that year (coinciding with the publication of Ian Kemp's Symposium). A half-empty hall in the winter of 1965 is more likely.


- I should have made clear that I was "wondering" about the weather conditions on 2nd Jan, not why they'd chosen that date. (But 1905, HS.)

Yes, of course!

Thanks very much.
(the usual finger trouble)

HS

[Hornspieler]

“Needle Time”

What is this all about?

The Slogan of the Musicians Union was “Keep Music Live!”

… and their argument was that active members of their union should not be kept out of employment by radio and television but that there should be an agreement to balance live performers with imported recorded musical output.

The result was the founding of the “Needle Time Agreement” whereby the BBC agreed to employ on a contractual basis an equivalent number of musicians to the amount of recorded and imported output.

The question of how many orchestras the BBC could afford to keep going is already the subject of another thread but already at this stage some orchestras had been axed and, whilst enjoying better pay and working conditions than the “Regional Orchestras” their job security was also under constant threat.

The Needle Time Agreement was based on the premise that, for every gramophone record or other recording transmitted, an equivalent amount of live performance by contracted members should be guaranteed by the BBC.

Then came Radio One. A host of disk jockies playing gramophone records of pop groups for 24 hours a day.

The needle time agreement had been thrown right out of balance and how could it be resolved?

The BBC came up with a clever solution. They would offer to set up a full-sized Training Orchestra of Post Graduate musicians who had failed to obtain orchestral posts and they would give further tuition and orchestral experience.

The successful applicants would receive only a nomimal subsistance allowance and the Union agreed that the orchestra would be allowed to give only one broadcast per week and one public concert per month.

And where would this orchestra be based?

In Bristol.

Former home of the BBC West Country Players, The BBC String players (led by my old pal William Reid) and the still extant BBC West of England Singers; an amateur group conducted by Philip Moore, the new Head of Music, succeeding Reginald Redman who I mentioned in an earlier post.
Perhaps it will be enlightening and save further wrangling if members take a look at the following link:

http://www.turnipnet.com/mom/bbcwest.htm

(to be continued)

[subcontrabass]

a full-sized Training Orchestra of Post Graduate musicians who had failed to obtain orchestral posts

Hmmm??? One of my contemporaries from school obtained a place in this orchestra in 1964 at the age of 17, leaving school before taking A-levels.

[Honoured Guest]

Sir Michael was born on 2nd January 1902 - hence the Birthday commemoration.

I can understand that Michael Tippett would almost certainly choose to celebrate his own birthday with family and friends, on the very anniversary day of 2 January.

But if the management of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra (or whichever iteration of it was teetering along at the time) couldn't fully comprehend that 2 January is plainly an idiotic scheduling date for a concert in Bristol comprised entirely of music by MT, then it is hardly surprising that their orchestra(s) seem to have struggled managerially over these very long years, as outlined by HS.

[MrGongGong]

[B]

What is this all about?

The Slogan of the Musicians Union was “Keep Music Live!”

Wasn't that slogan abandoned when they realised that many of their members earned far more from recordings than live performances?

[Hornspieler]

Originally Posted by Hornspieler
What is this all about?

The Slogan of the Musicians Union was[“Keep Music Live!”

Mr GongGong:
Wasn't that slogan abandoned when they realised that many of their members earned far more from recordings than live performances?

No. The NeedleTime agreement was about the amount of recorded music (basically gramophone records) being broadcast by the BBC - hence the title agreement being called "NeedleTime"

[Hornspieler]

Hornspieler and the 3 B's

Why in Bristol?
Why not in the London area?
London is easily accessible from all over the United Kingdom. Bristol is not.

Was the appointment of Leonard Hirsch, a distinguished violinist, as Conductor and Director of this newly formed symphony orchestra who had moved or intended to move to Bristol a factor?
A great musician and a leading string quartet player, but this was to be a training orchestra. What was his expertise in that field?

Let us look at the conditions agreed between the BBC and the Musicians Union under which this orchestra was to be established:

1. A full size symphony orchestra would be formed consisting of players who had completed their studies at music college but had not been able to secure a contract of employment in a professional orchestra.

2. Auditions would be held for candidates on the recommendation of their Collage Principals.

3. Succesful applicants would be engaged on the basis of the following terms:

a) A maximun age of 25.
b) Tenure to be for no more than 3 years
c) The BBC to pay an adequate Living and Subsistence allowance but not a Salary.
d) There would be special sessions devoted to familiarisation with Orchestral Repertoire outside of the orchestra’s scope or broadcast commitment..

e) The orchestra would be permitted to make a maximum of one Studio Broadcast each week and to give a maximum One Public Concert each month (which could be broadcast live or relayed for later transmission).

Problems Arising

Where was this enterprise going to do its work?

I think the BBC, in their naivety thought that the Colston Hall was going to be the place, but the burghers of Bristol had other ideas.
So another location had to be found – but the BBC in Bristol did not have a studio large enough to accommodate a full symphony orchestra and even their Christchurch Studio in Clifton, used from Monday to Friday by the Drama and talks department, would be totally unsatisfactory from an audio point of view. So, rehearsal facilities had to be found elsewhere. (WD & HO Wills factory across the River or St Aldhelms Church Hall were possible – at an unexpected additional cost to the original project, of course.

As stated above Leonard Hirsch was ideally suited to coach, train and encourage the string players but, within a few weeks, the woodwind and brass were complaining that they were receiving no help at all and so tutors for those sections had to be engaged.

Where from? London of course!
More expense. First class travel and hotel accomodation in addition to the tutors’ fees.

The BBC’s triumph in circumventing the problems of that Needle Time agreement was causing more trouble than expected.

[MrGongGong]

No. The NeedleTime agreement was about the amount of recorded music (basically gramophone records) being broadcast by the BBC - hence the title agreement being called "NeedleTime"

I do know this
BUT

I remember the MU branch that I was a member of at the time discussing this and for many MU members the earnings from recordings far exceeded those for live performance or broadcast which made the "keep music live" slogan (with all the stickers and badges) rather counter productive for them.

[Hornspieler]

I do know this
BUT

I remember the MU branch that I was a member of at the time discussing this and for many MU members the earnings from recordings far exceeded those for live performance or broadcast which made the "keep music live" slogan (with all the stickers and badges) rather counter productive for them.

Agreed. But the Unions object was to use this increased transmission of Gramophone Records to secure more contractual employment of their members in BBC orchestras and ensembles. The fact that some of those disks had already provided some members with additional income was irrelevant.*

*(Several Pop Groups used backing provided by 'straight' musicians - particularly by members of some of our better known string quartets, whose public concerts entailed hours of rehearsals which were unpaid.)

At the time of these negotiations between the MU and the BBC, I was the elected representative of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra at the meetings in London which dealt with pay and conditions of members working what was called the Standard Contract for Symphony Orchestras.

BTW As a correction to my previous posts:

The negotiations between the BBC and the MU took place when all this recorded music was being broadcast on BBC 2 (The Light Programme. Radio 1, 2., 3, 4 and 5 were not created until a few years later and at the time we had the BBC Light Programme, the BBC Home Service and the BBC Third programme.)

I hope that clarifies a few points.

... back to the 3 B's and what happened to the BBC's grand idea of setting up a cheap solution to the needletime dispute?

HS