What does the future hold for the BBC Orchestras?

[StephenO]

Labour's attitude to the arts, particularly since Blair, has left much to be desired. They don't like what they perceive to be 'high art' (theatre, opera, etc) as it's 'elitist.'

I think all parties would be happier if we all just like the bread and circus stuff.

Unfortunately theatre, opera, classical music, etc, aren't big vote winners so none of the parties is prepared to show much interest in them. The same, I'm afraid, goes for the British population in general.

It's a vicious circle. Classical music is sadly neglected in most state schools. Music education is both undervalued and underfunded. Consequently many people aren't even aware of what they're missing out on. This will only change if a government, of whatever political colour, realises the importance of music in our national life and is actually prepared to do something about it. Without that change there'll be little demand from the electorate as a whole for increased spending on the 'high arts' and the parties can afford to continue ignoring classical music. As long as politicians remain tone deaf philistinism will rule at the ballot box, much to the detriment of us all.

[MrGongGong]

Music education is both undervalued and underfunded. Consequently many people aren't even aware of what they're missing out on. This will only change if a government, of whatever political colour, realises the importance of music in our national life and is actually prepared to do something about it. Without that change there'll be little demand from the electorate as a whole for increased spending on the 'high arts' and the parties can afford to continue ignoring classical music. As long as politicians remain tone deaf philistinism will rule at the ballot box, much to the detriment of us all.

and what Tony Pappano said at the RPS awards

[Hornspieler]

Let's not forget the BBCs close relationship with, and involvement in, the Ulster Orchestra.

The Ulster Orchestra was formed by the Arts Council of Northern Ireland in 1966 to replace the semi-amateur, part time City of Belfast Symphony Orchestra, whose conductor was Maurice Miles.

It was to be of chamber orchestra size and the intention was for it to give concerts throughout the province.

I was appointed as General Manager and was responsible for the administration and planning, etcetera.

My problem at that time was that, on arrival in Belfast, I discovered that Miles had already recruited an orchestra, which consisted of sme half dozen former amateurs from the Belfast orchestra, ten players from the Radio Eireann Symphony orchestra (including Janos Furst as Leader) and twelve British, "straight out of music college" mostly wind players.

A bad mix. The ex Radio Eireann import had joined in order to become members of the Northern Ireland Musicians Assn. as a stepping stone to joining the British Musicians Union and defecting to various orchestras in England.
They were a bad influence on the young English novices and resented by the loyal Ulstermen from the former Belfast orchestra who had been quite happy with their local employment.

At this time, there was the BBC Northern Ireland Light Orchestra conducted by Terence Lovatt; so it was at least possible to programme some works requiring larger forces by recruiting extras from NILO, whose work was mostly daytime in the BBC's Belfast studios.

Maurice Miles had commitments at The Royal Academy of Music (training conductors, believe it or not!) and wasonly available from Tuesday to Friday, back to his family in Dorking for the weekend and at the RAM on Mondays.

When I arrived to take up my appointment, I discovered, to my horror and amazement that Miles had travelled all over the Province, promising the local residents an introductory free concert at the orchestra expense as an introduction to the New Ulster Orchestra.

So I arrived in August to find thirty concerts booked before Christmas with not a single Ticket Printed, no programme notes, no local publicity, (posters etc) and, critically, no coachs to transport the players and no orchestra van to carry the instruiments, music stands, platform risers and, sometimes, portable lighting equipment.

I solved the problem of the four-day week by recruiting Alun Francis, who as a horn player in the Bournemouth orchestra had studied conducting under Constantin Silvestri. His wife June was a more than competent violinist, available as a deputy for both the Ulster Orchestra and the BBC NILO if needed.

I will not burden the reader with any further history of my problems. Problems were arising for both orchestras.
Apart from Belfast and perhaps Londonderry, the potential audience from the entire town visited was about 30,000, so an audience of little more than 300 was average and that would not even cover the cost of travel, let alone soloists fees and forward publicity costs.

The Arts Council of Northern Ireland had many other commitments and could not withstand the expense of salaries alone without help.

The BBC were cutting down on their own orchestras at this time. The BBC Northern Dance Orchestra, the BBC Midland Light Orchestra, The BBC West of England Players, The BBC Scottish Radio orchestra and the BBC Northern Ireland Light orchestra - all had to go.

But for political reasons, the BBC presence in Ulster had to remain and the only way to achieve that was to combine with the impoverished Arts Council of Northern Ireland and combine and jointly subsidise the resulting full size symphony orchestra.
The Ulster Orchestra will celebrate its Golden Jubilee next year. Nobody would have dreamed of that possibilty in the late nineteen sixties, when political upheaval created one of the only non-sectarean organisations in the Province.

I think that my reply may be overlong but it does answer Bryn's question.

HS

[Dave2002]

... it seems to be policy to put people in charge of things they don't believe in.

It's not only politicians who do that. I heard of a head teacher in a school who had a policy of putting teachers with no or little knowledge of a subject in departments, so that eventually most departments had teachers running them with inappropriate experience. I think the theory was that this would give greater coverage, as skills would be spread out, and there'd always be some sort of cover available, and this would make the school more resilient. It's not that the teachers were bad, but putting maths teachers in charge of English, and English teachers in charge of PE, and PE teachers in charge of maths, for example, is not a good strategy, as was demonstrated by the outcome.

The result was that within a few years the school had been turned from a good school into a failing school. This is clearly anecdotal, and I don't know all the details, but I heard it from someone involved rather closely.

[Petrushka]

I think that my reply may be overlong....

Not at all, HS. Fascinating read, wish it was twice as long.

[Hornspieler]

Originally Posted by Conchis
Labour's attitude to the arts, particularly since Blair, has left much to be desired. They don't like what they perceive to be 'high art' (theatre, opera, etc) as it's 'elitist.'

I think all parties would be happier if we all just like the bread and circus stuff.
Unfortunately theatre, opera, classical music, etc, aren't big vote winners so none of the parties is prepared to show much interest in them. The same, I'm afraid, goes for the British population in general.

It's a vicious circle. Classical music is sadly neglected in most state schools. Music education is both undervalued and underfunded. Consequently many people aren't even aware of what they're missing out on. This will only change if a government, of whatever political colour, realises the importance of music in our national life and is actually prepared to do something about it. Without that change there'll be little demand from the electorate as a whole for increased spending on the 'high arts' and the parties can afford to continue ignoring classical music. As long as politicians remain tone deaf philistinism will rule at the ballot box, much to the detriment of us all.

The only politician of either of the main parties who fought for more subsidy for the Arts was the late Jenny Lee, wife of "Nye" Bevan.

When Bournemouth Borough Concil put an extra 3p on the rates to subsidise the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra (and remember that, at that time, Bournemouth had the lowest rates in the United Kingdom) the typical attitude of Bournemouth's rate payers was " ... why should we pay another threepence on the rates to subsidise a bloody symphony orchestra?"

Part of the agreement was that we should give all the children in Bournemouth free Schools concerts throughout the season.
The result was a noisy and quarelsome audience that only wanted to make trouble and disrupt proceedings; influenced by their parents' words.

In all the other towns in the West Region, where attendance at schools concerts cost sixpence, we never experienced any resentment or disruption from the audience, because the only parents who wanted their children to be there had given them the price of admission.

[Barbirollians]

I would move the BBC Phil to Yorkshire ! No chance after the BBC 's big Salford move .

[Flosshilde]

This threat is NOT without precedence. Remember the plans to disband the BBC Orchestras in the early 80's?! Frankly, I'll be really surprised if at least two of the corporations Orchestras are no more in five years time.

And there's the threat the SSO will be under if the SNP manage to get, & win, a second referendum on independence

[Hornspieler]

Hmmm... I fear that I am not 'competent to comment' but I have a 'rather faded' memory of a plan many years ago to 're-locate' the Bournemouth S.O. to Bristol... maybe our esteemed colleague Hornspieler might comment?

Yes, Tony. There was a rumour that Bristol had made a bid to take over the orchestra and some members even started looking up property prices in Bristol.
But it was never going to happen. We had children happy at school and with their classmates. Husbands and wives who had other employment in Bournemouth. Houses to get rid of quickly and accomodation to be found in the Bristol area.

But beware! Moving much of its output to Salford has certainly resulted in several members of staff, happy in their residences along the River Thames and convenient to White City to move to other TV and Broadcasting employers.

A good way of cutting staff without having to make large redundancy payments.

Yes BBC Scottish Orchestra might well be abandoned, with a gesture to Scottish loyalists to relay the occasional concert by the Scottish National Orchestra (Omitting the 'Royal' title)

Originally Posted by Flosshilde
Perhaps one of the two London-based orchestras could be moved to a 'region' that has limited access to orchestral music? The South West of England, perhaps? This might not help if BBC funding is cut, but it would be a response to the 'why does the BBC need two orchestras in London' argument.

No, Flossie. As I've said above, you can't move an entire orchestra. You would have to disband it, pay redundancy fees and start another orchestra elsewhere.

No chance!

HS

BTW. I started a new thread called "Hornspieler and the three B's" linking the various travails of Bournemouth, Bristol and the BBC in regard to orchestral employment. If nobody is interested, please say so. I don't need to spend time just writing to myself..

[MrGongGong]

I do find it rather amusing the way that some folks play "fantasy orchestral management" often with very little understanding of how musicians actually live and earn their money.
A bit like the poster who was complaining about having to book for things in advance and wanted the musicians to "do something" to change it

[Hornspieler]

I do find it rather amusing the way that some folks play "fantasy orchestral management" often with very little understanding of how musicians actually live and earn their money.
A bit like the poster who was complaining about having to book for things in advance and wanted the musicians to "do something" to change it

... and I find it rather less than amusing that some people who have never played in a professional orchestra, toured with an orchestra, been an active member of the Musicians Union or managed an orchestra feel competent to make any comment at all on the subject of orchestral employment and the threat to the continuance of both live and broadcast musics in this country.

HS

[MrGongGong]

... and I find it rather amusing that some people who have never played in a professional orchestra, toured with an orchestra, been an active member of the Musicians Union or managed an orchestra feel competent to make any comment at all on the subject of orchestral employment and the threat to the continuance of both live and broadcast musics in this country.

HS

Do we have to have the set to make a comment? (I only have 3 out of 4)

[vinteuil]

... and I find it rather amusing that some people who have never played in a professional orchestra, toured with an orchestra, been an active member of the Musicians Union or managed an orchestra feel competent to make any comment at all on the subject of orchestral employment and the threat to the continuance of both live and broadcast musics in this country.

"You may abuse a tragedy, though you cannot write one. You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables."

Samuel Johnson [ in Boswell : 25 June 1763 ]

[MrGongGong]

"You may abuse a tragedy, though you cannot write one. You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables."

Samuel Johnson [ in Boswell : 25 June 1763 ]

That told you

Now any other players in the "Fantasy Orchestra" game?

How about we build a new concert hall in London? It's not as if there is ANYWHERE at all in the UK for Orchestras to play

[pastoralguy]

In the new Radio Times, out today, (£2.00 from all good retailers)' has a Q&A with Alan Davey, Controller of Radio3.

You're also responsible for the BBC Orchestras and Choirs. How secure is their future?

"Their future is secure. They all have roles we can defend. We need to talk more about the BBC Performing Groups and what they do, not just on air, which is a key part or Radio3 and Radio2, but also the contribution they make to the musical life of the country, with concerts that might not be broadcast. They travel to places that otherwise wouldn't be served by orchestras".

(I hope this doesn't breach copyright!)