Holst IN THE BLEAK MIDWINTER film

[lordmhoram]

I found some of the imagery in the film a bit odd and a lot of his music not even mentioned (choral symphony for example).

Me too (particularly the bit where they showed an image of Jupiter whilst playing Neptune from the Planets!)

There was also no mention of the Choral Fantasia (IMHO one of Holst's best works), Savitri, or (really astonishingly) The Hymn of Jesus

[lordmhoram]

Indeed, I kept thinking exactly the same. why do we never hear 90% of his output in the Proms. Astonishing. The Lyric Suite on its own would be a welcome addition to viola literature, and there were so many othr peices.

Why do we not hear +90% of good British music at the Proms or elsewhere?? It's a question which I've been asking myself and others for over 40 years. It's a national scandal. (Although credit where credit's due - they have got round to Brian's Gothic symphony this year - only 31 more to go!)

(BTW it's Lyric Movement, not Suite. If you liked it, you should try the Choral Fantasia - it's also a very late piece: opens with a thrilling discord for full organ. Unfortunately, they're not doing it in the Composer of the Week series - although they are doing some very good things: Savitri on Wednesday - exquisite piece.)

I think that Holst, in his "late period", like Ravel and other composers, seemed to strip his music down to the bare essentials: in his case, this produced something which can be quite daunting at first, but very concentrated and massively rewarding after repeated hearings.

[EdgeleyRob]

It really bugs me the lack of British music at the proms or indeed other concert programmes.

Incidentally the radio 3 homepage describes Gustav Holst (COTW) as "of one of our most celebrated composers"

[Mary Chambers]

has dearest Sian married?

I wondered when the excerpts with Sian Edwards were filmed. If they were recent, she has aged very well - she looked exactly like that fifteen or twenty years ago.

[Norfolk Born]

It really bugs me the lack of British music at the proms or indeed other concert programmes.

You're not alone! I once heard Nicholas Kenyon justify the absence of Rawsthorne from the Proms on the grounds that 'his works don't match the acoustics - they work better in smaller halls' (or words to that effect). This year marks the 60th anniversary of the
2nd Piano Concerto, which I happen to have listened to this morning. It was written for the Festival of Britain. What are the chances that it will be programmed this year to mark this anniversary? And if Rawsthorne's pieces aren't 'big' enough, there are symphonies by Rubbra, Parry, Alwyn, and lots of fine pieces by Hoddinott, Mathias and Grace Williams. But, as the Alan Bennett character always says in those wonderful 'Dead Ringers' skits....'But they won't broadcast them, will they?'

[Suffolkcoastal]

Rawsthorne's 2nd Piano Concerto did get a proms outing a few years back and we did have Parry's 5th symphony last year as part of RW's little carrots offer to try and keep the British music fans placated without ever paying more than lip service to British music at the proms. We also had the magnificent Holst Choral Symphony performed in the 2009 proms as another of RW's little carrots. I think that there still exists a rather pathetic attitude that British music (with the exception of some Elgar & Britten) composed between Purcell and Birtwistle isn't really of any interest and is of poor quality. The truth is that British composers, particularly in the 20th century, have composed music of great variety, considerable-outstanding skill, and great individuality. For example you have Potter's symphonies in the 1820-30s which are the equal of most other symphonies of the period, Stanford & Parry were considerably better than the Brahms imitation labels thats thrown at them, try Parry's very original (especially structurally) earlier chamber music and Stanford's 4th symphony for example. Then we have one of the greatest of all 20th century symphonists in Vaughan Williams, an outstanding original in Holst whose music really isn't like anything else of the time and another true original in Tippett, other oustanding symphonists in Bax (what an absolutely outstanding orchestrator he was) Brian, Arnold & Simpson, other superb craftsmen such as Walton, Rawsthorne, Alwyn & Rubbra, Hoddinott who each created a sound world uniquely their's, and I could go on. We should be proud of this country producing so many wonderful composers and not seemingly taking every opportunity to belittle them. Yes let's have more Holst and other British music at the Proms and in the repertoire of our orchestras generally. How about a double bill of Holst's Savitri and Vaughan Williams' Riders to the Sea at next years proms, go on RW I dare you to programme it!

[BBMmk2]

< I got heartily sick of 'I vow to thee my country' continually cropping up and what on earth were those stupid crossover arrangements included, more dumbing down??? >

But as Mary C says, suffolketc, you missed the exact point Stephen Johnson made at the VERY start about 'Vow''s use and particularly its abuse - cue any number of such uses and abuses and that was intended to make us cringe I am sure - plus how much Holst hated the words, and the uses to which it had /has been put. And in fact, Johnson was good at explaining bits [ not enough I agree] of Holst's innovative craft in some of the Planets. I was then struck by how much of what Johnson pointed out was a working method resonated through the music we then heard throughout. And for a documentary, we actually got a heck of a lot of music per unit minute, and not necessarily with voice over either. And a good number of people who knew and worked with him. Didn't quitre see the point of the four hands Mars - what was needed threre was a scholar pointing out what had been 'edited' - we saw MS pages with sick-ons and stick-overs, but what was underneath?

For me, it opened up Holst in a way I am grateful for. Yes, if you are en expert / fan. then I can imagine it would have been a disappointment, but just hang on with the vociferous disillusion - at least we now have a documentary. Maybe others will step in to fill cracks?

Tamas Vasary was a total turn off, whereas Sian Davis was terrific - why do we not see more of her? -

Sian Edwards looks quite a charismatic and talented conductor. She certainly has the measure of the music that's in fron of her. Is becuase of her gender is that why she is not better represented?

As for the 'I Vow thee to my Countrey', I couldn't agree more as to why people had to extract that music from it's rightful place and made a mockery of it. Reminds me of when Sir Edward Elgar detested the words that make up of 'Land of Hope & Glory'.

[salymap]

Didn't Elgar and Holst have any control over the words that were set to their music then? That's what puzzles me.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

..despite the longeurs and gratuitous and anachronistic clips i was fascinated ... mainly i suppose because he and his work is so unknown to me [mea culpa] but then so is the music of many other composers mentioned in the thread ....it would be most welcome if someone like Steven Johnson could take us through music in Britain 1880 -1980 [or whatever fits] in a series on BBC4 .... rather like the Sacred Music series?

as an impressionistic character study it seduced but as an extended analysis it disappointed .... but the man was heroic in both his ethic and effort ....

[mercia]

according to wikipedia, Holst himself adapted the Jupiter "theme" to fit Spring-Rice's words in 1921

[salymap]

And the royalties to both Holst and Elgar must have made the words a little easier to bear.

[VodkaDilc]

I wondered when the excerpts with Sian Edwards were filmed. If they were recent, she has aged very well - she looked exactly like that fifteen or twenty years ago.

I felt the same about Imogen Holst. She always looked the same; I imagine that she adopted that appearance when she was reasonably young - and then stuck to it, without apparently changing with age.

It was a wonderful film; fortunately I have recorded it and now I intend to watch it again and make a note of the titles of the works I want to get to know.

[Boilk]

Why do we not hear +90% [sic] of good British music at the Proms or elsewhere?? It's a question which I've been asking myself and others for over 40 years. It's a national scandal.

The amount of 'classical' music composed decade-on-decade expands, if not exponentially, then hugely. The Proms season cannot expand correspondingly to accommodate a three-month (or more) programme of events, and the number of British and visiting orchestras, concert venues and classical enthusiasts has similarly not enjoyed comparative expansion. Needless to say, 'critical' frontline services (such as BBC commissions and symphonies by Shostakovich and Beethoven) are 'ring-fenced' by the powers that be. Thus there is ever more neglected repertoire competing for proportionally shrinking resources on several fronts. I think we could skip The Planets for a few years (or even warhorses of VW, Elgar and Britten) if it means reintroducing the 'forgotten' symphonies/concertos of, say, Alwyn, Rubbra, Hodinott or Searle - or perhaps lesser known works by Holst, Bax or even Tippett. And lets not forget there's a younger generation of British composers rarely heard (Maw, Swayne, Goehr and Hoyland to name but four of many).

One thing worth mentioning is that many composers of the inter-War emerging generation were still writing overtures and incidental music which wouldn't take up an entire half of a concert, and more enterprising programming allowing them to get a look-in this way is certainly called for ... brief gems like Alwyn's The Magic Island, Bliss's Discourse or Walton's very late Prologo e Fantasia would delight and inform audiences.

[salymap]

Boilk I worked in music publishing for some years and when I bemoaned the disappearance of so much music that I had seen through the press and helped to promote, a senior colleague explained that it always happened.
Time filtered off a lot of the [slightly] second rate and the rest came to the top.

I'm still not altogether convinced. Fashion and the people in charge at the BBC have a lot to do with it surely.

I watched the first 40mins or so of the Holst film today, very mixed, Imogen was the best bit so far.

[rauschwerk]

I obtained from my local library the biography by Michael Short (OUP 1990, now out of print and for which £150 is asked for a copy on Amazon!) and learnt a great deal about Holst from that. By the sound of it, this documentary won't add much but I'll watch my recording anyway. I don't know about Holst dying "broken and disillusioned", I must say, though clearly his health was pretty poor in his last years. He seems genuinely not to have cared whether a new piece succeeded or failed (though his friend RVW certainly did on his behalf). I do wonder how much he saw of his family, spending as much time as he did in long solitary walking tours (during which, presumably, he worked out music in his head). He loved the music of Haydn and hated that of Liszt. One dictionary entry I read concluded, "He set himself high standards of gregariousness and was constantly exceeding them".