Do Conductors Have A Shelf Life?

[richardfinegold]

Most of would agree that Professional Athletes probably peak in their mid twentis and by their mid thirties are in a state of decline (except in American style football, where their bodies and brains have been blasted by the early 20s).
Most Classical Music Instrumentalists are not indestructable either. Think of the physical problems of Menuhin, Szigetti, Leon Fleisher, Van Cliburn, Gary Graffman....
When I became interested in music, one of the ongoing myths was that conductors improve with age. With years came wisdom, respect from musicians who would follow their every facial tic for clues as to what the Composer wanted...And certainly there have have been many aged Conductors that have had great success.
When I was a lad Toscanini was held up as an example of the improving with extreme age theory. Now that I have had a chance to hear many of his recordings from the 1930s, I think this was a load of hooey. His earlier recordings always sound more flexible, less martinet like.
Bruno Walter was another grand old man whose every downbeat was suppossed to be filled with "Humanity" (what exactly that term means when applied to music I have yet to comprehend). Again, now that many live performances of his have surfaced from the 1930s and 40s, they always sound more energetic, vital, and dynamic than the heavy, soggy , ennervating late recordings (excepting his late Mahler).
When I was a Medical Student in Detroit in the 1980s, the city was energized by the signing of the Octogenerian Antal Dorati to lead the Orchestra. Dorati was a terrific front man, charming the Media and the big donors, and he and the DSO did make some good recordings (Bartok's Mandarin). However, it was soon obvious that he was a spent force. The musicians had trouble following him, he was reportedly frequently confused during Rehersals and Concerts, and in general it was apparent that he should be sitting on a beach somewhere enjoying the sunset years.
Being in decline as an Octogenerian is one thing. What about the Conductors that seem to peak in their 30s?
Zubin Mehta did vital and dynamic stuff with Montreal, LA, and the Isreal PO in his early years. After being torn to shreds in New York, he never seems to have recovered.
Ozawa made some great recordings in the 1960s. He guest Conducted here a lot and some of his concerts have been broadcast and what a difference from the marshmallow that he became in Boston!
Closer to your shores..woolly headed Simon Rattle has done some good things in Berlin, but had more than his share of misses in the Prussian Capital. His tenure is generally not considered a success and it will be interesting to see what he does with the rest of his career.
Mariss Jansons peaked in Oslo. For a man who has been lucky to have Conducted some really outstanding Orchestras (Pittsburgh, Amsterdam, Bavaria) he has made virtually no records that I would consider essential purchases.

Bernard Haitink and Gunter Wand are generally thought to be two oldsters that slowly ripened, and I have many records by both. Both tended to rerecord the same pieces..and I usually prefer their first recorded thoughts.

So do Condiuctors also have a shelf life? Best used by 55?

[Barbirollians]

Walter's heavy soggy late recordings ? I don't know any of those - his wonderful Columbia Brahms symphonies, glorious Bruckner 9 and stunning Beethoven 4 and 6 I do know !

[pastoralguy]

Hmmm. Big question for 23.20 on a Friday nite!

Some very random thoughts.

I think orchestral players do have a respect for ageing conductors. The very fact that they have managed to stay the course in a very stressful and competitive profession earns a lot of kudos amongst orchestral players.

Four conductors, IMHO, who aged well were Sir Colin Davis, Sir Charles Mackerras, Sir Thomas Beecham and Sir John Barbirolli. I only heard the first two but I knew players who had played under the last two and they attested to their powers being largely intact. Sir Colin and Sir Charles were still commanding great playing from the LSO and the SCO respectively.

Although Menuhin was not a great 'technical' conductor, players had such respect for him that they would play well . I knew a horn player who said that despite having almost no technique the music just poured from him.

I agree that some conductors, such as Previn, did their best work in their youth.

I don't agree that Sir Simon's tenure with Die Berliner Philharmoniker has not been a success. Believe me, if the orchestra had any doubts he would have been out on his ear a LONG time ago! Like all musicians, he's better at some things than others. He's broadened the orchestra's repertoire enormously and made it a vital part of Germany's cultural life as opposed to a stuffy museum.

Bedtime!

[richardfinegold]

Hmmm. Big question for 23.20 on a Friday nite!


Some very random thoughts.

I think orchestral players do have a respect for ageing conductors. The very fact that they have managed to stay the course in a very stressful and competitive profession earns a lot of kudos amongst orchestral players.

Four conductors, IMHO, who aged well were Sir Colin Davis, Sir Charles Mackerras, Sir Thomas Beecham and Sir John Barbirolli. I only heard the first two but I knew players who had played under the last two and they attested to their powers being largely intact. Sir Colin and Sir Charles were still commanding great playing from the LSO and the SCO respectively.

Although Menuhin was not a great 'technical' conductor, players had such respect for him that they would play well . I knew a horn player who said that despite having almost no technique the music just poured from him.

I agree that some conductors, such as Previn, did their best work in their youth.

I don't agree that Sir Simon's tenure with Die Berliner Philharmoniker has not been a success. Believe me, if the orchestra had any doubts he would have been out on his ear a LONG time ago! Like all musicians, he's better at some things than others. He's broadened the orchestra's repertoire enormously and made it a vital part of Germany's cultural life as opposed to a stuffy museum.

Bedtime!

It was only 5:30 p.m. here when I wrote it, after a bad day at work!
Boult and Barbirolli did age well. otoh, I don't really know their earlier work.
And yes Barbs, WAlter's late recordings could use some Viagra. Try his "New World" for one.

[Barbirollians]

Not a recording I know but I see it seems to have rave reviews on Amazon.

[pastoralguy]

Not a recording I know but I see it seems to have rave reviews on Amazon.

I've always thought the 'New World' as being bomb proof anyway. I heard a mediocre youth orchestra play it once and it STILL hit the target!

[Dave2002]

A very interesting question, and one which might be very difficult to answer.

How are we to judge - by concerts, recordings or some mixture? Some artists (young, middle aged or older) seem to give very different performances in live concerts than in recordings, and also I think that some artists can give different performances even on successive days. At least with recordings we can hope that artists will not allow the release of performances they were unhappy with - though commercial pressures and other interests may dictate otherwise. Some of the factors have very little to do with the age of the performers.

Regarding a few older conductors - I heard some really good performances by Boult, but also a few which were slow and not at all dynamic. Colin Davis and Charles Mackerras were definitely both giving very good performances right up to the end - not always absolutely consistent, but the overall feeling I have is that they were still pretty much on top of their game. I did once hear Pierre Monteux - and although I can't remember much about the concert - it was certainly a good one.

There may well be other counter examples, and it seems there are hints at a few in the original post.

[Alain Maréchal]

Kurt Sanderling was giving superb performances into his late eighties, but he decided to retire at the age of 90, so perhaps he felt a decline. In any case, it had been a very long and very eventful career.

[richardfinegold]

I did not mean to imply in my OP that aged Conductors were incapable of giving great performances. I look forward to seeing Haitink conduct here.. Some of my favorite records were made by Stokowski when he was 95 years old, and Monteux when he was approaching 90.
Otoh, I have had a chance to experience earlier work done by some Conductors whom I previously only knew from the twilight of their careers--namely Walter, Toscanini,and Dorati--and I have reshaped my opinions of all 3. Yes, they made great music at the end, but imho all 3 peaked as musicians at an earlier time.
With Dorati, having purchased the two big Mercury Boxes, there is no question in my mind that these recordings are far superior to repetoire that he re recorded (and that I frequently heard him live) 20 years on. I also have purchased Haitink "The Phillip Years" and find that I prefer his earlier Bruckner and Mahler recordings to those that he has made with the CSO or the LSO. Unlike Dorati (whose Physical frailties I was able to witness first hand, and since I knew a few of the Detroit SO Musicians, I heard their stories), I think Haitink is very much in command of his abilities. Walter had severe Cardiovascular issues his last few years--which is when he made the stereo recordings through which I had formed my impression of him---and when I listen to the loss of vitality compared to
what he produced in the earlier decades, I can't help but wonder how much of that is due to a a conscious Artistic choice versus physical infirmity.
Then there is the case of Leonard Bernstein. LB always put his personal stamp on everything he did, but his CBS recordings from the late 1950s to the early 1970s are so much more "mainstream" compared to what he produced in his last years. His last Tchaikovsky Pathetique is simply perverse. Artistic choice? Probably.
It is also striking how some Conductors remained consistent in their approaches as they rerecorded works through the decades. Karajan and Ormandy, two very different Conductors, both had long careers and rerecorded extensively. While there are many differences in their competing versions of individual works, I tend to be struck by the relative consistency they maintained through the years.
If a Conductor declines somewhat as they pass the age of 75, it may run counter to the stereotype that Conductors improve continuously with age, but it is at least understandable. As I indicated in my OP, it is harder for me to understand the ones that seem to have hit their peak at a much younger time and then seem to be in an Artistic plateau or stagnation thereafter.

[Dave2002]

Of course opinions differ. One conductor who made some really good recordings early on was Levine, and some commentators have felt that in recent years his work has been less good. Maazel made really good recordings of Sibelius early on - I have the LPs, but his later ones are apparently less impressive. I was really impressed by Rattle years ago - he and I come from the same city - and I'm pretty sure I used to see him at concerts when I was much younger. I haven't liked his recent work so much, but there could be many reasons for that, and not necessarily any reflection on him. He has, seemingly, pushed the BPO screaming into the 20th and 21st centuries - which follows on from what he tried to do in Birmingham. Even though I may not always like the music, any conductor who tries to push the boundaries with new music as Rattle has done deserves a lot of credit. He wan't/isn't unique in that, but there are still conductors who seem simply to go with the "standard" repertoire - whatever that is - and don't even attempt to sneak in any new works in concert programmes.

[Nick Armstrong]

Sadly their marriages appear to be - I noticed that sadly Mrs Dudamel has filed for divorce. But then that's hardly particular to conductors, so this is a rather pointless post...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I suppose the essence of this thread is that conductors peak at different stages of their lives.

[richardfinegold]

Of course opinions differ. One conductor who made some really good recordings early on was Levine, and some commentators have felt that in recent years his work has been less good. Maazel made really good recordings of Sibelius early on - I have the LPs, but his later ones are apparently less impressive. I was really impressed by Rattle years ago - he and I come from the same city - and I'm pretty sure I used to see him at concerts when I was much younger. I haven't liked his recent work so much, but there could be many reasons for that, and not necessarily any reflection on him. He has, seemingly, pushed the BPO screaming into the 20th and 21st centuries - which follows on from what he tried to do in Birmingham. Even though I may not always like the music, any conductor who tries to push the boundaries with new music as Rattle has done deserves a lot of credit. He wan't/isn't unique in that, but there are still conductors who seem simply to go with the "standard" repertoire - whatever that is - and don't even attempt to sneak in any new works in concert programmes.

I don't think that Levine has conducted very much in the past few years due to multiple health problems.
I think that Rattle's Berlin tenure had mixed results. The reviews of his Concerts and recordings of the BRO core repretoire were decidedly mixed. As far as pushing the boundaries, he probably has done that more than Abbado and that will be viewed as the positive part of his legacy.

[Oliver]

Klemperer is often named as one of those conductors whose performances became slower and slower as he aged. He was my idol in the 60s when I was at school. I recall a performance he gave of Bruckner 9 at the RFH which my mother took me to when I was about fourteen. (God bless her; Bruckner wasn't her cup of tea but she would do anything to encourage my interests.) At the time, it was overwhelming. Now, were I to hear it again, I'm not so sure. And the Beethoven symphonies with the Philharmonia, particularly 3 and 6 which my Klemperer-adoring uncle swore to me were the finest available, even less so. Even then, I had my doubts about the funereal Peasants' Merrymaking movement. Incidentally, the Decca Ace of Clubs Kleiber 3, which my uncle gave me, seems very contemporary now while the Klemperer seems to to come from a different age. Perhaps Klemperer's finest work was in the 20s and 30s when he was committed to the performance of controversial and contemporary works.

[richardfinegold]

Klemperer is often named as one of those conductors whose performances became slower and slower as he aged. He was my idol in the 60s when I was at school. I recall a performance he gave of Bruckner 9 at the RFH which my mother took me to when I was about fourteen. (God bless her; Bruckner wasn't her cup of tea but she would do anything to encourage my interests.) At the time, it was overwhelming. Now, were I to hear it again, I'm not so sure. And the Beethoven symphonies with the Philharmonia, particularly 3 and 6 which my Klemperer-adoring uncle swore to me were the finest available, even less so. Even then, I had my doubts about the funereal Peasants' Merrymaking movement. Incidentally, the Decca Ace of Clubs Kleiber 3, which my uncle gave me, seems very contemporary now while the Klemperer seems to to come from a different age. Perhaps Klemperer's finest work was in the 20s and 30s when he was committed to the performance of controversial and contemporary works.

Another good example. There have been many Conductors whose work we know primarily from records, when after WWIII there was a burst of recording activity, and who were past their primes by then.
Would Beachanm qualify?