The ' Cello Suites Were Written by Mrs. NOT Mr. Bach.

[pastoralguy]

I once heard an anecdote from a member of the Elgar Society that during a talk at one of their meetings the speaker described how Earnest Newman had once said that when he visited Elgar during his final illness Elgar had said five words to him as he was leaving. Newman said that he never
had or would repeat those five words. Apparently Joyce Kennedy (wife of Michael) immediately suggested "Alice wrote all my music!"

Now that's a thought that's going to fester...

[cheesehoven]

I am actually disappointed that the BBC should lend its name and reputation to this shoddy piece of drivel, obviously an attempt at attention seeking by Martin Jarvis. It also makes me wonder about the standard of modern academicism, if Jarvis can get even a modicum of support for such poorly reasoned nonsense. There is not one shred of evidence that Anna Magdelena composed anything let alone that she composed 6 highly accomplished suites in a perfect imitation of her husband's style, without apparently composing anything before or after, unless we accept the ridiculous contention that she actually composed some of the WTC.

[Bryn]

I am actually disappointed that the BBC should lend its name and reputation to this shoddy piece of drivel, obviously an attempt at attention seeking by Martin Jarvis. It also makes me wonder about the standard of modern academicism, if Jarvis can get even a modicum of support for such poorly reasoned nonsense. There is not one shred of evidence that Anna Magdelena composed anything let alone that she composed 6 highly accomplished suites in a perfect imitation of her husband's style, without apparently composing anything before or after, unless we accept the ridiculous contention that she actually composed some of the WTC.

And your shred of evidence that JSB was the sole contributor to the Cello Suites (so very different from the solo violin works) is?

I remain unconvinced of the true authorship of the Suites, but J feel no need to froth at the mouth about the shallowness of Jarvis's contention. The apparent destruction of AMB's portrait etc. by the family does muddy the waters rather.

[Boilk]

Interesting programme which at least made the case for re-evaluating the extent of Anna Magdalena's assistance in some of her husband's work.
Was not aware of the scholarly challenges re. the attribution of Toccata and Fugue in D minor to Bach - have always thought that piece as possessing rather too many musical one-offs for JSB.

I was impressed mostly by the archive footage of Anna Magdalena ... presumably taken by her out-of-shot husband?
The digital transfer to modern-day colour was also well done.

[ahinton]

I thought the argument in favour of her early musical involvement with JSB was pretty convincing.

I didn't, but would not discount the possibility even if the details remain relatively shrouded.

The possibility of AMB having composed the Aria upon which JSB wrote his Goldberg Variations also seemed fair enough.

I accept that it's not inconceivable, any more than Prelude I from Book I of WTC...

As to the Cello Suites, the jury seemed to be very much still out.

Indeed - and there's so much else that she "might" have written had she been capable, willing and had the time in addition to her copying and other duties; the problem here is that, had she a monumental talent of the order of JSB, she'd have found it quite hard to continue to hide her own light under a bushel even in those days, I suspect. The notion of Bach & Co. Ltd. was usefully made and I've always thought that Bach must have had a small army of assistants otherwise he'd never have gotten all the workd done that was demanded of him, particularly in the days on weekly Cantatas. However, the handwriting expert gave something of the game away - very honestly and helpfully, oin some ways - by introducing herself as a non-musician with no predetermined interest in who wrote waht; as such, she had only her professional skills, rather than here ears, upon which to depend and I don't really think that these can be wholly ignored here!

I have no problem in principle with Jarvis having undertaken the research per se, of course, but I do have issues about its outcome that led me (cynic? moi?) to ponder on whether he's just another member of that burgeoning breed of musicologists who seem to see the profession as a means of drawing as much if not more attention to themselves than to the subjects of their research, although most tend to confine a large proportion of their professional activities within the cocoons of the campus (the graves of academe, one might say) for the principal benefit (or otherwise!) of their peers. Too much of him and not enough of Ruth Tatlow, I fear...

Whilst there was some coverage of what words might have been used at the time of writing to describe composing, writing and copying and to distinguish between them, this aspect of the case soon seemed to get pushed unceremoniously into the background in favour of yet more forensic examination of inks, handwriting and so on - and Jarvis's linguistic deficiencies say much..

Clearly, the lack of reliable documentation of AM's life and activities presents obstacles in proving or disproving anything. It was relevant to point out that the profession of composition was not a recognised one in its own right in or before Bach's day and, indeed, the ascendancy of the profession of composer and the decline of the composer/performer arguably began only with Beethoven and Berlioz respectively and the latter still held considerable sway until the 20th century and has never quite disappeared. So AM may well have had some music education beyond just learning the singer's art and would not in any case have even been able to work as copyist without it – and I would not be surprised that she could compose – but the prospect that she could write on the level of JSB at his best remains as elusive as ever. Why would JSB have written mainly relatively simple things for her in the handbook if her compositional prowess was sufficient to enable her to compose the cello suites, for which I imagine she would also almost certainoy have needed at the very least to be a proficient string player? OK, she would doubtless have observed string players at work at first hand in her rôle as CEO of the Bach firm, but would that have been of much help to her to in writing those suites? Yes, the solo cello and solo violin works that we've long understood to be JSB's work are indeed quite different in character – but then look at the vast contrasts in character between one prelude and fugue and another within WTC!

I thought that Sally Beamish presented the programme well enough, but by no means sufficiently so to convince me of conjectures about which she herself still claims to be "on the fence"!

Could a woman have composed the cello suites given sufficient grounding and experience of composition? Undoubtedly. Did AM write these ones? Ahem! The Sarabande from the C minor one's as good a giveaway as any when looking for the answer to that one...

Anywa - Happy Bachday!

[ardcarp]

I thought that Sally Beamish presented the programme well enough

My problem is that her premise that women historically have been thought of as incapable of composition [partly true] made the argument an emotional one not an academic one.

Chief proponent 'Martin' [whoever he is] was clearly a fanatic who would tweak anything to fit his obsession. Here are two of his assertions:

1. "If you are capable of taking down music by dictation accurately you're capable of composing it yourself"

2. "Bach drew his own manuscript lines to save money" [not quite sure of the logic here]

Well, No 1 er....

And No.2 Printed m/s paper is a relatively recent phenomenon. How can you take someone's scholarship seriously who doesn't know that? (Incidentally,when I was was a schoolkid you could still buy dipping nibs with five prongs for that purpose.)

[Bryn]

As to drawing one's own lines, that stingy magpie Igor Stravinsky designed and patented his own five nib pen, the “Stravigor” for the purpose.

[ahinton]

As to drawing one's own lines, that stingy magpie Igor Stravinsky designed and patented his own five nib pen, the “Stravigor” for the purpose.

Perhaps it's time to "draw a line" under this...

[ahinton]

My problem is that her premise that women historically have been thought of as incapable of composition [partly true] made the argument an emotional one not an academic one.

Not entirely, but it did nothing to help it along and arguably obsructed it; in point of fact, it seems to me that it has in any case been less a matter of women being thought incapable of composition (a very hard premise to prove - "thought of" by whom, about which women and for what supposed reason/s?) than one of it being thought not to be the done thing for women to compose.

"If you are capable of taking down music by dictation accurately you're capable of composing it yourself"

I know; if that's not trying to make something fit an argument, I'm not sure what is in this context. You can't do it without certain musical skills, to be sure, but then no one is doubting that AM had these to some degree; however, Martin J didn't even supply incontrovertible proof that she did this in the first place. Moreover, being "capable of composing" such music as one takes down by dictation hardly qualifies one person who did it as one of the greatest composers of her day, does it? How good, for example, was Eric Fenby as a composer?

As to "Bach drew his own manuscript lines to save money", at least it afforded some momentary amusement. The only scholarship to take consistently seriously on that programme was that of Ruth Tatlow who was given her brief slot and then conveniently passed over - see http://www.bachnetwork.co.uk/ub10/ta...re-release.pdf, but I suppose that an in-depth discussion of this paper would not have made for anything like so "successful" a film or a TV programme. However well-meaning her intent (and I am not doubting her integrity), I feel rather sorry that Sally Beamish lent her name to this, not least in the rather obvious idea that getting a female composer to present something like this might be thought somewhat to load the dice in advance.

[Stanfordian]

Perhaps it's time to "draw a line" under this...

Yes, it's time this preposterous debate ended. Only J.S. Bach could have written his cello sonatas.

[MrGongGong]

Yes, it's time this preposterous debate ended. Only J.S. Bach could have written his cello sonatas.

"Only" ?

Is that because someone who plays the cello says ?
Or because we all know it to be 'true' ?

[Bryn]

Yes, it's time this preposterous debate ended. Only J.S. Bach could have written his cello sonatas.

Not exactly a reasoned argument there. As I understand it the only one of the Suites to still be found in JSB's hand is the ornamented transcription of the 5th (for lute). Even that could just possibly have been an arrangement of a work by someone other than JSB himself. Think I'll give Anner Bylsma's arrangements for violoncello piccolo of BWV 1003, 1006 and 1013 a spin after Rob Cowan's programme. They are stylistically so very different from/to/than/against* BWV 1007 to 1012.

* "different against" was apparently briefly in vogue during the 17th Century.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

One of Beamish's voice-overs stated that it was Jarvis himself who insisted that she get the views of Ruth Tatlow - which I think was the most respectable contribution to the programme he made. So much else was surmise and conjecture ("it could have been", "it might well have been") - leading to the suggestion that Maria Barbara committed suicide because of her husband's infidelity. The evidence being that, as there is no evidence anything could have happened - Jarvis has missed a trick: why not have JS and Anna Magdalena murdering Maria Barbara? There's a three-week ITV miniseries starring Martin Clunes there - with Daniel Radcliffe as the young constable who defies the orders of his superiors to investigate this suspicious death in the household of a man with a history of violence and a prison record!)

What happened to the portrait of Anna Magdalena after her death? We don't know (repeated three times) - so let's suggest that the family destroyed it - and, if they destroyed it, they must have really hated her, so that's evidence that she wrote the 'cello suites ... Bach's daughter Catharina Dorothea must have hated having to call AM "mother" (evidence for this?) becuase she was 15 and AM was only a few years older, and you know what 15-year-olds are like. Any evidence for this conjecture? Nothing given in the programme - but Jarvis had previously (and rightly) been very pleased with himself for discovering evidence to show that Anna Magdalena had been a "member" of the Bach household since she was 12 (and Catharina 7) - the children would have known her and grown up with her; the equally evidence-lacking conjecture could be formed that the two were excellent friends and that Catharina "must/might/could have" gone frequently throughout her childhood to get comfort from AM when her father's grumpy moods (which JEGger's BBC4 documentary last year "proved"!) upset her.

What I missed was forensic evidence of Anna Magdalena's handwriting (in the sort of detail that Bach's "signature" was illustrated) - what exactly are those "fingerprints" that show that she is the writer (to use a word that Jarvis also tripped over) - that would have been a fascinating documentary in itself, but presumably not "sexy" enough for the Beeb (anyone see Horizon on "the End of Physics"? It's not just Music that gets this crappy treatment). Still - great to see Caroline Wilkinson doing a facial reconstruction. And some lovely background Music. But otherwise MJ really let his desperation to prove a point override his critical faculties.


A pity; I so enjoyed his readings of the William books ...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hey! I've just noticed that Bach called his very first child Catharina! Geddit? Cathar ina! Why chose this of all names? Evidence (as I've long suspected) that Bach was a Gnostic! Is there any evidence that his family didn't originate from 13th Century Languedoc? No? Well then ... that's proof that is!

[Richard Tarleton]

Finally watched it last night - grateful thanks to ahinton for posting the link to the Ruth Tatlow article, which might have saved me the bother. No wonder they gave her such short shrift. I then found myself watching the Who Killed the Princes in the Tower programme, the tone of rhetorical, tendentious conjecture flowed seamlessly from one to the other.

A pity; I so enjoyed his readings of the William books ...