The ' Cello Suites Were Written by Mrs. NOT Mr. Bach.

[Bryn]

Whether she wrote the pieces or not, she certainly wouldn't have been playing an early nineteenth century square piano!

Oh come now. How do you know she was not also an innovative early developer of such an instrument whose piano making sideline has been as overlooked as her compositional activity?

Anyway, I caught the item on this issue on the Today programme this morning. It was not helped by Steven Isserlis coming across as the archetypal MCP bully, doing his utmost to disrupt his frfriend Sally Beamish's contributions to the discussion.

[ahinton]

Oh come now. How do you know she was not also an innovative early developer of such an instrument whose piano making sideline has been as overlooked as her compositional activity?

Never mind just merging thes two threads on Mrs Bach II; I can see your post above encouraging a new thread about Bach played on the modern Steinway (or perhaps, given its greater historical longevity, on the modern Bösendorfer), in the design of which we now know that she had a hand, as evidenced by papers including drawings and plans recently discovered by Prof. Jarvis Cockup.

Anyway, I caught the item on this issue on the Today programme this morning. It was not helped by Steven Isserlis coming across as the archetypal MCP bully, doing his utmost to disrupt his frfriend Sally Beamish's contributions to the discussion.

I didn't hear this so will catch up with it later. I'd already read Isserlis's piece about this and have no obvious problems with it, but perhaps a Today-like exchange with pro- and an-tagonists refereed by whichever presenter chose to do it might not have been such a good idea in the first place (who did referee it, by the way?)...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Threads now merged.

[Bryn]

... (who did referee it, by the way?)...

It was Jim Naughtie. At least he has rather more enthusiasm for the topic than John Humphrys might.

[Boilk]

... I know of no one who doesn't believe that Ms Bach II didn't write the cello suite[s] just because so much child bearing and rearing didn't permit her the luxury of sufficient time to do so.

Wow, is that a quadruple negative? ... I had to read that three times!

[Bryn]

Wow, is that a quadruple negative? ... I had to read that three times!

Indeed, and Sally Beamish treated with the issue, suggesting that her socio-economic standing meant that Anna Magdalena was able to hive off most of the child rearing responsibilities.

Oh, and she made it quite clear that she took an equivocal position re. the authorship of the Suites.

[jean]

Wow, is that a quadruple negative? ...

Not in the sense that the term double negative is normally used - because ah didn't mean the negatives to cancel each other out.

But such a proliferation does make the sentence a bit difficult to disentangle.

[ahinton]

Not in the sense that the term double negative is normally used - because ah didn't mean the negatives to cancel each other out.

But such a proliferation does make the sentence a bit difficult to disentangle.

Fair comment - so here's a revision:

"I know of no one who believes that the sole reason why Mrs Bach didn't write the cello suites was that so much child bearing and rearing responsibilities left her without the luxury of sufficient time to do so (i.e., by implication, had it not been for her childcare duties, she could have written them)".

That do?

[ahinton]

It was Jim Naughtie. At least he has rather more enthusiasm for the topic than John Humphrys might.

Indeed; I've heard it now. That said, I had heard that John Humphrys plays the cello! He wasn't on the programme today in any case - and whether any inferences could or should be drawn from the fact that Jim's co-presenter this morning, Sarah Montague, was banished to the roof of BBC HQ ostensibly to report on the then forthcoming eclipse just as that piece was about to commence rather than handed the brief to witness Isserlis and Beamish on the ropes is something upon which I couldn't possibly comment...

[LHC]

It's certainly possible that there are unknown "great works" by women composers which could be used to support "gender equality" (though not likely considering that the definition of greatness is tied up with maleness in all sorts of ways), but part of the point of feminism—actual feminism, as created by and for women—is that gender equality does not in fact exist, and cannot exist because gender is hierarchical by definition. Women could not be great artists in that time. (Arguably, still can't. Certainly we have lots of female composers and performers today, but I guess it's just a massive coincidence that no women composers are in the standard rep and the vast majority of female performers who receive attention are sexually attractive to men?) It's certainly possible that Anna Magdalena wrote the cello suites, or any number of other works, and signed her husband's name to them. But what seems likely, based on what we know of how women and girls are groomed and what is generally accepted to have happened, is that her energy and musical inspiration were redirected into her husband and family. Some of the results of that redirection we can still hear: Sebastian wrote quite a bit of music for her; she copied, published and edited some of his works; she saw to the musical education of the children, some of whom grew up to be C.P.E. or W.F. or J.C. or whatever. Others, not so much: without a wife to do most of the "dirty" work it's unlikely Bach would have had the energy and focus to create music of such power. Anna Magdalena may well have spent six hours cleaning the house while her husband wrote Cantata #210 (or maybe not, perhaps they had servants? I don't know and don't feel like looking it up). But the house just got dirty again, whereas Cantata #210 is still here.

Oh and AMB isn't the only one who helped create this environment in which Bach wrote his music (though she's one of the more direct musical influences). We also have to take into account his first wife, his children, his students, his teachers, his friends... Bach was not an "individual". Grow a clone of JSB in a lab and you're not going to get the rest of Contrapunctus XIV. You probably won't get any music at all actually. Takes a village to write a cello suite, is my point.

Slightly off-topic, but my feeling is that the vast majority of male performers who receive attention are also expected to be 'sexually attractive' to women (and other men). Joshua Bell is a fine violinist, but would he have had such a high profile career without the soft-focus glamour shots that grace his CDs? Similarly, Jonas Kaufmann is marketed as much for his romantic looks as for his (excellent) singing ability.

[Flosshilde]

(though not likely considering that the definition of greatness is tied up with maleness in all sorts of ways), but part of the point of feminism—actual feminism, as created by and for women—is that gender equality does not in fact exist, and cannot exist because gender is hierarchical by definition.

Does this mean anything? I've read it several times & it still seems meaningless. Men might, because of their dominant social position, have defined 'greatness', but that doesn't mean that 'the' (is there only one?) definition of 'greatness' is tied up with maleness. I don't know what you mean by 'actual' feminism - is there a 'pretend' feminism?, but I thought that feminism was about breaking down gender boundaries and definitions, as much as about equality for women, so that men and women are no longer constrained by stereotypes. At least, that's what a lot of women I've known have led me to believe (but then, perhaps they weren't actual feminists, even though that's what they thought they were). Heirarchical? Possibly, because our society is heirarchical, but that doesn't mean that gender is is heirarchical in itself, just that it has a heirarchy imposed on it.

[Barbirollians]

So far all seems rather thin. I can understand entirely that she was very musical and wrote out manuscripts for him and assisted him.

It seems a great leap to find that she composed the works.

[Mary Chambers]

Unconvincing, I thought. I'm glad, though, that BBC4 gave time to what for many would be a very esoteric subject.

[Bryn]

I thought the argument in favour of her early musical involvement with JSB was pretty convincing. The possibility of AMB having composed the Aria upon which JSB wrote his Goldberg Variations also seemed fair enough. As to the Cello Suites, the jury seemed to be very much still out.

[doversoul1]

I’ve just watched it but can’t see the point of it at all. Anna Magdalena wrote down the music but what has it got to do with actual composition? Scribers and copyists did all sorts of things to original texts. I expect music was no different.

The story about Goldberg aria proves nothing. How Musical Offering came about is well known, and there is that Vivaldi’s little tune, too. There is something in the way in which Martin Jarvis goes about suggests that what he is interested in is saying something about women, never mind the music.

I suppose this is what television does. I’ll stick to Composer of the Week.