Tales from the Stave R4 Beethoven Spring Sonata

[DracoM]

This is seriously worth iPlayering.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b054qc1t

Minute, detailed and exciting discoveries by expert musicians of the sonata.

It is an enormous shame that these jewels are not skilfully edited and used as interval slots in concerts. They are absolutely perfect for R3.

[french frank]

It is an enormous shame that these jewels are not skilfully edited and used as interval slots in concerts. They are absolutely perfect for R3.

Might be worth suggesting.

The (infamous, in my view) 'Delivering Quality First' of 2011:

§ 2.1.2 ... On radio, we propose a limited adjustment to network remits and spend: reducing overall talent costs on Radio 1 and Radio 2; removing music opts for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on Radio 1; and some reductions to live music and music talks on Radio 3.

[and same para: Some critical parts of the portfolio remain protected, including BBC One’s role in natural history, popular science, arts and documentary; and Radio 4, where limited decommissions are compensated for by equivalent reinvestment.]

Hence Radio 4 has £90m to spend pa and Radio 3 has £40m (same as Radio 1).

[ardcarp]

It is an enormous shame that these jewels are not skilfully edited and used as interval slots in concerts

An excellent idea. Just occasionally (though not this week) the veneration of the autograph scores becomes a bit over-sentimental. Anyway that could be edited out for a sophisticated R3 audience...

[makropulos]

An excellent idea. Just occasionally (though not this week) the veneration of the autograph scores becomes a bit over-sentimental. Anyway that could be edited out for a sophisticated R3 audience...

Which is one reason why it's a R4 programme, not intended for hard-core R3 listeners who apparently dislike "over-sentimental veneration" of autograph scores. I have to say that you'd need a heart of stone not to be deeply moved (and likely to become extremely sentimental) when faced with the autograph of Mozart's Requiem. And it's probably that aspect of the programmes - the sort of "human-interest" dimension - that makes them effective for the much larger R4 audience.

Very glad this Beethoven programme was enjoyed - it was a fascinating manuscript to discuss and we had a very interesting time with it. (Incidentally, Beethoven was the first of three programmes we made on the same day. The other two were Rosenkavalier with Simone Young, and the Mozart Requiem. Right after that it was off to Brno on the train for a programme that should be broadcast in the autumn as part of the next series).

[french frank]

we had a very interesting time with it. (Incidentally, Beethoven was the first of three programmes we made on the same day. The other two were Rosenkavalier with Simone Young, and the Mozart Requiem. Right after that it was off to Brno on the train for a programme that should be broadcast in the autumn as part of the next series).

Did "we" know this?

I did say off board to Draco that it was a pity that putting music talks on Radio 4 for the bigger audience was balanced by taking them off Radio 3 (for the smaller audience). And they wouldn't have to be in the same style ...

[makropulos]

Did "we" know this?

I did say off board to Draco that it was a pity that putting music talks on Radio 4 for the bigger audience was balanced by taking them off Radio 3 (for the smaller audience). And they wouldn't have to be in the same style ...

Very good point, and there should definitely a place for both! The problem as I see it is that R3 tends - these days - to fight shy of talk about music that isn't (largely) artist-led. That's something of a generalisation, but I do miss the kind of R3 talks that made such an impression on me when I was younger.

As a participant in three of the latest Tales from the Stave I should no doubt have declared an interest

[DracoM]

But this talk WAS artiste-led! Concert Master of the VPO? Leading Beethoven scholar? Leading archivist? I mean.....!!!

[makropulos]

But this talk WAS artiste-led! Concert Master of the VPO? Leading Beethoven scholar? Leading archivist? I mean.....!!!

I must have put it badly - I meant the subject matter really (i.e. Beethoven), not the fact that there were participants

[Roehre]

But this talk WAS artiste-led! Concert Master of the VPO? Leading Beethoven scholar? Leading archivist? I mean.....!!!

Indeed. Neither of the participants is known as Beethoven scholar.
Why not mentioning e.g. that Beethoven originally meant the sonata in a op.23 (that "footnote in history" mentioned in the introduction of the programme) and the Frühling op.24 to be a pair, op.23/1 and op.23/2? He himself also considered the a-minor superior to the F-major!

The veneration of the score is (here) in so far ridiculous as it is the "final" score, written -or better: copied- by Beethoven from his sketches/continuity score. Not meant to show many corrections (in this stage of B's career at least that is- a couple of years later, and certainly in the 1820s, that would be completely different).
If they wanted to show how the composer struggled, then the sketches would have been much more interesting because of the variants B choose NOT to include in his final score (the so-called Landsberg 7 sketchbook, at the present in Berlin, but adequately published in 1927 already, with a quite recent reprint in 1971, not difficult to put hand on).

Dirty spots caused by coffee?? Possible, but don't rule out (rain)water, like in the manuscript of the Appassionata, which manuscript was partly drenched in a rain shower.

As for the role of Count von Fries as benefactor, it might be an idea to read Tia DeNora's Beethoven and the Construction of Genius. Musical Politics in Vienna 1792-1803 first, before drawing conclusions about the Fries-Beethoven-relationship.

[makropulos]

Indeed. Neither of the participants is known as Beethoven scholar.

Why not mentioning e.g. that Beethoven originally meant the sonata in a op.23 (that "footnote in history" mentioned in the introduction of the programme) and the Frühling op.24 to be a pair, op.23/1 and op.23/2? He himself also considered the a-minor superior to the F-major!

The veneration of the score is (here) in so far ridiculous as it is the "final" score, written -or better: copied- by Beethoven from his sketches/continuity score. Not meant to show many corrections (in this stage of B's career at least that is- a couple of years later, and certainly in the 1820s, that would be completely different).
If they wanted to show how the composer struggled, then the sketches would have been much more interesting because of the variants B choose NOT to include in his final score (the so-called Landsberg 7 sketchbook, at the present in Berlin, but adequately published in 1927 already, with a quite recent reprint in 1971, not difficult to put hand on).

Dirty spots caused by coffee?? Possible, but don't rule out (rain)water, like in the manuscript of the Appassionata, which manuscript was partly drenched in a rain shower.

As for the role of Count von Fries as benefactor, it might be an idea to read Tia DeNora's Beethoven and the Construction of Genius. Musical Politics in Vienna 1792-1803 first, before drawing conclusions about the Fries-Beethoven-relationship.

A couple of comments. Again, I should declare an interest as I was one of the participants.
1. There were five participants (including Frances Fyfield), not two, and one of them (Thomas Leibnitz) knows this manuscript extremely well.
2. Good point about the Op.23/24 pairing (and the original publication of the two as a pair). Actually quite a lot of discussion took place about this in the room but with only 28 minutes there evidently wasn't enough time to use it, especially as the focus had to be on Op. 24, and on the manuscript itself.
3. These programmes are intended as discussions of and reactions to the object(s) at hand - not a comprehensive critical review of all the extant sources. You're entitled to find that "ridiculous", but it's the rationale for the series and one of the reasons it's suitable for R4.
4. Definitely not rain in this case.
5. Obviously this is a matter of horses for courses, I suppose. Clearly this one wasn't for you.

[Stanfordian]

This is seriously worth iPlayering.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b054qc1t

Minute, detailed and exciting discoveries by expert musicians of the sonata.

It is an enormous shame that these jewels are not skilfully edited and used as interval slots in concerts. They are absolutely perfect for R3.

Hiya DracoM, This is the sort of informative programme that should be on Radio 3 regularly. However, the title 'Tales from the Stave' is incredibly pompous.

[french frank]

There are any number of points where we would say that the apparent 'overlap' between what Radio 4 does and what Radio 3 does is definitely 'more apparent than real' - think the drama output (where people who aren't interested in drama can't understand why it isn't left to Radio 4, and dropped by Radio 3). But our battle - the FoR3 battle, at least - is to preserve the clear gap between what the two stations do. Like the clear gap between Radio 3 and Classic FM. Don't disparage what other stations do for their audience - help campaign for something better on Radio 3!

Further thought: That 'gap' is the justification for Radio 3 having its 'small audience'.

[ardcarp]

Having been the sniffy one who brought up the subject of

"over-sentimental veneration" of autograph scores.

I can well understand why it happens. Several years ago I was privileged to see the original Eton Choir Book in Eton College Chapel (yes, it's kept there, not in any national institution) at close quarters, and to see it being sung from by some music scholars. Actually they were probably pretending to sing from it as its notation is difficult for us these days, but nevertheless to see the 500 year old Ms in its orginal surroundings was, yes, an emotional experience. The snag is, talking about it to anyone but the cognoscenti, you get a sort of 'Oh yeah?' response. I've also worked on and handled many autograph Mss by lesser English composers (Croft, Green, Boyce and the like)...but after a while the sense of wonder wears off.

My point is that the sense of 'veneration' is a very personal one, and one should not assume that everyone will feel the same way when it's dished up second-hand.

PS OK I realise the Eton Choirbook is not 'autograph scores' exactly, but the work of copyists, but, even so.....

[makropulos]

Having been the sniffy one who brought up the subject of I can well understand why it happens. Several years ago I was privileged to see the original Eton Choir Book in Eton College Chapel (yes, it's kept there, not in any national institution) at close quarters, and to see it being sung from by some music scholars. Actually they were probably pretending to sing from it as its notation is difficult for us these days, but nevertheless to see the 500 year old Ms in its orginal surroundings was, yes, an emotional experience. The snag is, talking about it to anyone but the cognoscenti, you get a sort of 'Oh yeah?' response. I've also worked on and handled many autograph Mss by lesser English composers (Croft, Green, Boyce and the like)...but after a while the sense of wonder wears off.

My point is that the sense of 'veneration' is a very personal one, and one should not assume that everyone will feel the same way when it's dished up second-hand.

PS OK I realise the Eton Choirbook is not 'autograph scores' exactly, but the work of copyists, but, even so.....

Your point is well made (and taken) - but so too is your sense of excitement at seeing the Eton Choir Book!