Music has nothing to do with politics (again) ?

[jean]

So my point is, music is not inherently political. It needs external elements to become political

I rather thought S-A was saying that what you call the external elements are an inherent part of the music - the classic Marxist analysis, as FF says. Without them, the music would not exist.

[french frank]

I rather thought S-A was saying that what you call the external elements are an inherent part of the music - the classic Marxist analysis, as FF says. Without them, the music would not exist.

Except without them nothing would exist. Even, strangely, my big toe.

And, going back to the thread title: is 'politics' the same as being, in this rather all-embracing fashion, 'political'?

And is 'inherent' not different from 'showing the influence of', or 'brought into being by'?

I would say that such 'political' - and I still think cultural, sociological are more accurate terms - aspects are incidental, not intrinsic. But if you (one) then argue that cultural and sociological aspects are still, ultimately, 'political', I give in: that becomes like debating the existence of God, omnipresent, sempiternal.

[doversoul1]

The point I was trying to make is; the external elements are definitely part of the music but not inherent nature of music per se. Music can be perfectly well appreciated by an audience that has no knowledge of the original environment in which the work was composed.

I broadly agree with what ff said earlier.

I would like to hear of examples where the music itself is inherently 'political' rather than being used/exploited/manipulated for political purposes - which is what I suspect people mean in saying 'music is political' or can't exclude/be divorced from politics

[jean]

I would say that such 'political' - and I still think cultural, sociological are more accurate terms - aspects are incidental, not intrinsic.

I think so too, but I didn't think that was what S-A was saying.

[french frank]

I think so too, but I didn't think that was what S-A was saying.

Ferney said: "... Musical sounds they are going to make is a matter of cultural preference - and as such, inherently "political"; [… ] All cultural choices are political in this wider sense …"

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ferney said: "... Musical sounds they are going to make is a matter of cultural preference - and as such, inherently "political"; [… ] All cultural choices are political in this wider sense …"

Well, he sort-of did, but he wasn't saying that the "Musical sounds" themselves are "inherently 'political'"; the opening of that sentence stated quite unambiguously that the "sounds in a piece of Music are not meaning-specific" (in other words, you can't have an anti-semitic Dominant Seventh, nor a Marxist augmented sixth) - it's the choices that the Musicians make which are political: how the human political animal uses cultural artefacts, even if un/subconsciously.


(And when you referred to your big toe - did you mean the one on the Left or the one on the Right? )

[Beef Oven!]

It's hard to know how a discussion like this can be had sensibly, without defining what we mean by 'politics'.

[jean]

Or even what we mean by 'music'.

[jean]

...it's the choices that the Musicians make which are political: how the human political animal uses cultural artefacts, even if un/subconsciously...

But it's the musician who produces the cultural artefact, which is the music.

[french frank]

It's hard to know how a discussion like this can be had sensibly, without defining what we mean by 'politics'.

The theory, study or practice of the polity. Activity relating to the polity. In that sense, what has music to do with politics? Better to stick to 'political' - that causes enough problems! (I would say that deliberately refusing to vote is a political act; it is not politics. But other artistic actions could be politics)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But it's the musician who produces the cultural artefact, which is the music.

Yes - but they choose which cultural artefacts they're going to produce. It's the choice that makes it political.

By which I mean a wide convergence of social, cultural and historical aspects and attitudes.

[Beef Oven!]

The theory, study or practice of the polity. Activity relating to the polity. In that sense, what has music to do with politics? Better to stick to 'political' - that causes enough problems! (I would say that deliberately refusing to vote is a political act; it is not politics. But other artistic actions could be politics)

Isn't 'political' the describing word for anything that needs to be described within the 'theory, study or practice of the polity' (politics)? And I am assuming that citizens or subjects are included when you refer to the polity.

[Serial_Apologist]

Isn't 'political' the describing word for anything that needs to be described within the 'theory, study or practice of the polity' (politics)? And I am assuming that citizens or subjects are included when you refer to the polity.

My worry is that were politics as defined by french frank and by parliamentary systems with their periodic elections to be overthrown, they, like the non-political music whose overruling straw person's existence would worry them, would disappear too!

To part-answer doversoul, music doesn't disappear when the underlying politics changes; it changes too. Takemitsu was a living example in his music.

I so wish ferney's view of politics as choice were true - it would be a much happier world than it is!

[french frank]

And I am assuming that citizens or subjects are included when you refer to the polity.

Not as individuals, surely? The polity refers to the system or organisation, doesn't it?

[Ferney] It's the choice that makes it political.

By which I mean a wide convergence of social, cultural and historical aspects and attitudes.

Isn't this where the problem lies? According to what philosophy or political system is that the definition of 'political'?

If someone asked me where I came from, and I said: "Earth", I wouldn't be making a meaningful statement.

[Beef Oven!]

Not as individuals, surely? The polity refers to the system or organisation, doesn't it?

Citizens/subjects engaging in activity relating to the polity, is what I meant. Including their activity, not just the state's.