Music has nothing to do with politics (again) ?

[MrGongGong]

http://ncac.org/update/silenced-by-the-symphony-young-composers-piece-yanked-from-carnegie-hall-debut/

[Beef Oven!]

http://ncac.org/update/silenced-by-t...ie-hall-debut/

This type of censorship is scary. And counter-productive.

[Serial_Apologist]

All future performances of Debussy's "En blanc et noir" had better be banned then. Oh, and Region 2 of Stockhausen's "Hymnen" as well, containing as it does that quote from the Horst Wessel Lied.

Civilisation seems to be becoming more and more thin-skinned. Would they perform the WW2-satirising sketch from "Beyond the Fringe" today? Audiences comprising those who lived through it as well as mine born just after laughed without being in any way offended.

[french frank]

"Some audience members may have painful memories associated with the official music of oppressive regimes but that should not mean that any work that references this music must be silenced." No, of course not - because, in a sense, that is why it was included, for its emotional impact - which is not something to be avoided. If it were glorifying the events it would be different, but I doubt it was. As Owen wrote of War, and the pity of War.

[MrGongGong]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-31739535

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/2015/3/3/manchester-music-school-surrenders-to-zionist-lobby-pressure

[Oliver]

I'm not surprised; the Zionist lobby in the US is running amok at the moment, thanks (in part) to the Evangelical Christian (sic) buffoons in Congress.
Here in the UK, it is less powerful but once it gets its claws, both legal and financial, into a dissident like Gilead, it invariably draws blood.....particularly if he/she is regarded as a "renegade" Jew or Israeli.

[Old Grumpy]

Sad state of affairs - Gilad is a fine musician, if he does go on a bit...

[french frank]

I think we can agree that 'music' can sometimes be political, and sometimes politicised. Here it would appear to be both, but to stick to the spirit of the thread title, however, I hope we shall focus on the former ...

I would like to hear of examples where the music itelf is inherently 'political' rather than being used/exploited/manipulated for political purposes - which is what I suspect people mean in saying 'music is political' or can't exclude/be divorced from politics.

[Serial_Apologist]

I think we can agree that 'music' can sometimes be political, and sometimes politicised. Here it would appear to be both, but to stick to the spirit of the thread title, however, I hope we shall focus on the former ...

I would like to hear of examples where the music itelf is inherently 'political' rather than being used/exploited/manipulated for political purposes - which is what I suspect people mean in saying 'music is political' or can't exclude/be divorced from politics.

But, how can music not be inherently political, given that its expression is social and therefore inescapably political?

How it is political, i.e. how the political is expressed in musical terms, differs from era to era - this being an important aspect of music's evolution, I would have thought.

[french frank]

But, how can music not be inherently political, given that its expression is social and therefore inescapably political?

Perhaps our understanding of what the word 'inherent' means differs when applied to music.

People will say that music can't be 'inherently' tragic, 'inherently' beautiful, for example: the way people experience it is personal to them; and what one person finds melancholy another finds peaceful, what one finds tuneless another finds melodic.

What do you mean when you say of music that 'its expression is social'? Maybe you take 'political' in a different sense? Everything is connected to everything? I don't find your use of these words have any meaning for me.

[Old Grumpy]

Perhaps our understanding of what the word 'inherent' means differs when applied to music.

People will say that music can't be 'inherently' tragic, 'inherently' beautiful, for example: the way people experience it is personal to them; and what one person finds melancholy another finds peaceful, what one finds tuneless another finds melodic.

What do you mean when you say of music that 'its expression is social'? Maybe you take 'political' in a different sense? Everything is connected to everything? I don't find your use of these words have any meaning for me.

Some might say that Jazz is inherently political.

OG

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Perhaps our understanding of what the word 'inherent' means differs when applied to music.

People will say that music can't be 'inherently' tragic, 'inherently' beautiful, for example: the way people experience it is personal to them; and what one person finds melancholy another finds peaceful, what one finds tuneless another finds melodic.

The sounds in a piece of Music aren't "inherently" meaning-specific, but the choice(s) that Musicians make of which Musical sounds they are going to make is a matter of cultural preference - and as such, inherently "political"; not in the sense of supporting any particular political party line, but in the sense of expressing to others what values and conventions are important to the Musicians making those choices.

All cultural choices are political in this wider sense - wearing a wedding ring is a choice to let others see that the ring-wearer has accepted, approves of, and values the social conditions that "Marriage" entails.

[french frank]

The sounds in a piece of Music aren't "inherently" meaning-specific, but the choice(s) that Musicians make of which Musical sounds they are going to make is a matter of cultural preference - and as such, inherently "political"; not in the sense of supporting any particular political party line, but in the sense of expressing to others what values and conventions are important to the Musicians making those choices.

All cultural choices are political in this wider sense - wearing a wedding ring is a choice to let others see that the ring-wearer has accepted, approves of, and values the social conditions that "Marriage" entails.

I suspected the answer would be something like that - S_A may have additional thoughts, but this is a very attenuated interpretation of 'political'. The political aspect becomes insignificant once everything can be included in the definition. I don't really feel there is a necessary connection between the social, cultural and the political.

Political implies some sort of engagement with social organisation/government/authority, and the extent of the political depends on the nature and extent of the engagement. Surely?

[teamsaint]

Would " political" not imply a relationship with, rather than engagement with?

Most people would describe Crass as " political", but I would imagine their relationship would be one of complete disengagement from the mainstream political?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The political aspect becomes insignificant once everything can be included in the definition.

I don't think so - the significance of the political aspect becomes clearer once the definition is extended.

Political implies some sort of engagement with social organisation/government/authority

Yes - it's the nature of the "sort" that creates the differences between our understanding, I think.

and the extent of the political depends on the nature and extent of the engagement. Surely?

Not necessarily - people can (and do) partake in political activities ("some sort of engagement with social organization etc") often without being aware of the extent to which they are participating.