Conductors' ear-worms

[jayne lee wilson]

An interesting thread and part of the fascination of what conductors do.

Does anyone remember the bit in the recent Rattle Beethoven broadcasts when the critic of the Birmingham Post recounted how he noticed that Rattle ended the scherzo of the 5th Symphony with a pizzicato instead of on the bow as most conductors do. On ringing him the following morning the critic (forgotten his name, sorry. Was it Christopher Morley?) pointed out how magical it sounded Rattle replied "I got that from Erich Kleiber".

When preparing for the 1987 New Year's concert Herbert von Karajan went back and studied all of his own recordings of the Strauss pieces on the programme and in the end chose to model his interpretations on his earliest examples recorded with the Vienna Philharmonic in 1948/49.

Two instances there where a conductor has allowed 'previous baggage' to influence the ideal. Unless the conductor has never heard the work before and never heard a recording then the only arbiter is the score. In something like Beethoven's 5th 'previous baggage' is surely unavoidable.

Sorry for the pedantry here, Petrushka, but it was in fact the allegretto of the 7th Symphony which was played this way (after Erich Kleiber (and Carlos Kleiber - it's there on his famous VPO disc)) - but only when Rattle played it in Birmingham, before taking them on tour. In Frankfurt, he stuck to the score; there doesn't seem to be any compositorial source for the variant, striking though it may be...

(no joy so far in my enquiries about possible commercial release...)

[Petrushka]

Sorry for the pedantry here, Petrushka, but it was in fact the allegretto of the 7th Symphony which was played this way (after Erich Kleiber (and Carlos Kleiber - it's there on his famous VPO disc)) - but only when Rattle played it in Birmingham, before taking them on tour. In Frankfurt, he stuck to the score; there doesn't seem to be any compositorial source for the variant, striking though it may be...

(no joy so far in my enquiries about possible commercial release...)

You're right of course and can't think why my finger put scherzo but seem to be doing things like this just lately. Too much hurry, too little time.

[ardcarp]

Going back to Eroica, I think NichoLas Kenyon dwelt on many of the things I had in mind. Interesting that his final choice (COE) was what he described as 'a version for today'.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Interesting that his final choice (COE) was what he described as 'a version for today'.

The music is over 200 years old. What is the relevance of "today" in that context, other than following the whims of fashion?

[Roehre]

Sorry for the pedantry here, Petrushka, but it was in fact the allegretto of the 7th Symphony which was played this way (after Erich Kleiber (and Carlos Kleiber - it's there on his famous VPO disc)) ....; there doesn't seem to be any compositorial source for the variant, striking though it may be...

The source is to be found in Gustav Nottebohm's Skizzen zur 7. und 8.Symphonie published in Musicalisches Wochenblatt (Leipzig) 6 (1875) :245-249 and 257-261.

It is this type of publications which did Brahms decide to destroy his own sketches and works which in his eyes were not fit for publication, hence meant for his own eyes only.

[btw, and again off topic: a pause in bar 16 of the 1st mvt of IX (played by i.a. Furtwängler), which is not included in either Beethoven's autograph nor in the copyist scores, but can be found among his sketches, was unearthed by Nottebohm, and found thus its way into conductors' interpretations ]

[ardcarp]

The music is over 200 years old. What is the relevance of "today" in that context, other than following the whims of fashion?

However regrettable, Alps, performance style does and always has evolved with the times...call it 'following the whims of fashion' if you like.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

However regrettable, Alps, performance style does and always has evolved with the times...call it 'following the whims of fashion' if you like.

Yes - except that I don't find this "regrettable" at all: it shows that the Music speaks to each successive generation in its own terms. I understood NK's comment to mean that he thought that Harnoncourt's recording best speaks what is known of the work and what can be read from the score today.


I happen to disagree - I think Krivine has set the bar much higher, providing a recording that reminds us that Beethoven was only thirty-three when he wrote the work, re-imagining the sound of the score without distorting it, but revealing its lithe athleticism, its continuation of the traditions of Haydn and Mozart and its joyfully revolutionary rewriting of that tradition.

[Suffolkcoastal]

An interesting thread this one. I don't think it is just as simple as studying the score or reviewing earlier recordings at least generally with 19th century music and earlier. The conductor will for some works, have a variety of editions to examine if he/she so chooses, how much of the finer detail, dynamics, phrasing, bowing, articulation, tempi etc is editorial, conductors will very rarely, if ever, have the chance to see the original score, and of course the earlier we go back the less finer detail is indicated by the composer. How do you judge the dynamics in music that only has the minimum detail? Understanding the structure of a piece and getting a feel for it, whether by playing through a reduction or listening to other interpretations, is key. Something suddenly sticks out and it leads to various other thoughts etc.
I'm quite fascinated by different interpretations of the Brahms Symphonies, especially nos 1 & 4, and I'm yet to find one that matches my thoughts on how they should go, particularly in relation to tempi and articulation.

[Roehre]

...
I'm quite fascinated by different interpretations of the Brahms Symphonies, especially nos 1 & 4, and I'm yet to find one that matches my thoughts on how they should go, particularly in relation to tempi and articulation.

That makes two of us, SC

[there are off course many pices for which that applies, but the Brahms symphonies are very intriguing ones, e.g. by their odd phrase lengths layered on top of each other [in 3 and 4 and the violin concerto expecially], and the rather stiff use of the brass [especially caused by Brahms' preference of natural horns]]

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm quite fascinated by different interpretations of the Brahms Symphonies, especially nos 1 & 4, and I'm yet to find one that matches my thoughts on how they should go, particularly in relation to tempi and articulation.

Just out of interest, Suffy (and Roehre too, of course) - where do your thoughts in these matters originate?

[Alison]

Just out of interest, Suffy (and Roehre too, of course) - where do your thoughts in these matters originate?

[Suffolkcoastal]

From doing exactly as in my posting, a combination of all mentioned. I would love to hear these thoughts tried out, I could be completely off track, but I'll probably never know.

[Alain Maréchal]

Apparently Carlos Kleiber would listen exhaustively to recordings of works that he was going to perform.

On the other hand, it is said of Paul Paray, who progressed from organist to conducting (as a POW) without first playing in an orchestra, that he hardly ever heard anybody else's performances, let alone records, so his interpretations are just what he found in the score.

[Alison]

I rather admire CK for saying that. Most don't own up to it!

[Roehre]

Just out of interest, Suffy (and Roehre too, of course) - where do your thoughts in these matters originate?

FHG, In my case:
-Brahms' autographs (some nicely -and pricey - facsimiles have been published)
-the piano-4-hands arrangements prepared by Brahms himself - very illuminating as what Brahms himself saw as the core of his works (he produced such reductions of almost all orchestral and a lot of chamber works himself) [mind you: the 2VS started with mentioning/marking Haupt- and Nebenstimmen in their scores, Brahms didn't]
-the first editions (and Brahms was a notoriously bad proof reader) as well as
-the Dover scores (very handy, all the symphonies in one binding ) with interesting differences
-recently: the scores of the critical edition published by Henle Verlag (study scores + "kritischer Bericht" that is). the most reliable edition of Brahms' works.

then there are the remarks as given in Brahms' correspondence and in reminiscences of his contemporaries (especially re the 4th symphony a nice source - you'd never guess what comments were given especially about the 2nd and 4th mvts of that work)

There is a lot of information about Brahms' works available without much trouble -
with Beethoven that's a lot more complcated, but it starts really being complicated from early Beethoven down to earlier composers like Mozart and Haydn, you really need specialised knowledge for Bach, let alone the early music before him.