Women Composers' Thread/International Women's Day 2015 on R3

[MrGongGong]

[B]
If the graph is meant to show young people’s career aspirations, it merely shows that fewer girls consider music as their future careers. It maybe that girls prefer keeping music as their private interest rather than turning it into a means of earning money.

It might
or it might mean you are clutching at straws


and

Sound & Music is an organisation that promotes the work of ALL composers regardless of gender.

But as you seem to be more interested in opinion rather than facts or evidence then carry on.

(What is the problem with 'quotes and figures' anyway? )

[Nick Armstrong]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-business/11461185/BBC-Radio-3-composer-of-the-week-Meet-the-young-women-fighting-back.html

[MrGongGong]

Stop posting links
what is wanted is ill informed opinion (allegedly)

(thanks for this )

[P. G. Tipps]

I did not call you stupid, which would have been personal abuse. I called your comment stupid, and pointless, which it was. Anyone can make a stupid comment sometimes. And you did.

It (or rather the two points I made) weren't at all stupid. They were simple, undeniable facts, and you clearly didn't like me highlighting them. If nothing else your post lacked simple courtesy in response to my own and completely lacked any real attempt to counter the points made.

To refresh your memory these points were as follows:

Fact A) The lady who complained bitterly about 'a strong undercurrent of sexism' in the music industry is herself a presumably influential Chief Executive in the industry.

Fact B) Her stated policy to combat this alleged gender-concious 'strong undercurrent of sexism' in programme-planning is to encourage gender-conscious programme-planning in the opposite direction.

Your response was that my post was 'stupid' and to suggest that I check the proportion of male compositions performed in comparison to female, or something to that effect. Nobody (as far as I know) has ever claimed there wasn't an overwhelming male majority when it comes to music composition/ performance but that doesn't automatically point to 'a strong undercurrent of sexism'. If it does then the nursing industry is 'guilty' of exactly the same thing in reverse!

Some members here fervently wish we return to the subject of music, but gender-consciousness is an integral part of this thread, surely? Personally, I too wish it wasn't, and tomorrow I'll attend a concert featuring some Mendelssohn and, obviously unlike some here, I couldn't honestly give a monkey's hoot whether the music I always enjoy eventually turns out to have been composed by Fanny and not Felix, at least as far as their respective genders are concerned.

Hope that now comes across to you and a few others as a little less 'stupid' but then again if you still genuinely think that this opinion is indeed stupid, then I suppose there is very little point in me trying further to convince you otherwise!

[MrGongGong]

Fact A) The lady who complained bitterly about 'a strong undercurrent of sexism' in the music industry is herself a presumably influential Chief Executive in the industry.

Erm

No she isn't

SAM isn't really part of the 'music industry'

The key word in your statement is presumably.
You presumed wrong

[ahinton]

Fact A) The lady who complained bitterly about 'a strong undercurrent of sexism' in the music industry is herself a presumably influential Chief Executive in the industry.

What MrGG said in response - and, in any case, why would her merely being "a presumably influential Chief Executive in the industry" disqualify her from making such a complaint if she believes that it is justified? One person alone doth not an industry make - and one female CEO alone doth not a strong undercurrent of sexism dismiss.

Fact B) Her stated policy to combat this alleged gender-concious 'strong undercurrent of sexism' in programme-planning is to encourage gender-conscious programme-planning in the opposite direction.

That's not how I read it; that said, if indeed there is such an undercurrent, it can only be countrmanded by dispensing with it in some way, so what better suggestion would you care to make?

Nobody (as far as I know) has ever claimed there wasn't an overwhelming male majority when it comes to music composition/ performance but that doesn't automatically point to 'a strong undercurrent of sexism'.

Nobody (as far as I know) has ever claimed that such a majority in and of itself points to that undercurrent, as though a mere statistic alone could do that; on the contrary, it's the long history of social and cultural historical baggage that has brought it about.

Some members here fervently wish we return to the subject of music, but gender-consciousness is an integral part of this thread, surely? Personally, I too wish it wasn't, and tomorrow I'll attend a concert featuring some Mendelssohn and, obviously unlike some here, I couldn't honestly give a monkey's hoot whether the music I always enjoy eventually turns out to have been composed by Fanny and not Felix, at least as far as their respective genders are concerned.

That's all very well, but such an attitude of mind will of itself achieve nothing to bring about any change to that strong undercurrent of sexism, not least because it smacks of the kind of desire to push it under the carpet as one might expect to find in someone in wilful denial thereof.

Hope that now comes across to you and a few others as a little less 'stupid' but then again if you still genuinely think that this opinion is indeed stupid, then I suppose there is very little point in me trying further to convince you otherwise!

I'm afraid that, for me, your excuses sadly do little to minimise the stupidity...

[Richard Barrett]

is herself a presumably influential Chief Executive in the industry.

Wrong. Do your homework.

Although that would be a first I know. Sorry to sound so intemperate but there seems to be a lot of tiresome sexist crap being thrown around here by men who would apparently prefer to live back in the times when women supposedly knew their place. The thing is that in the little world of composers women are in general discriminated against in all kinds of ways, and certainly in ways that men are not discriminated against in the nursing profession (another stupid analogy, apologies again but it is). I say this because I have decades of experience seeing it go on in numerous different countries. `redressing this balance obviously is going to involve some "positive discrimination" because if it doesn't nothing will change.

[Beef Oven!]

Wrong. Do your homework.

Although that would be a first I know. Sorry to sound so intemperate but there seems to be a lot of tiresome sexist crap being thrown around here by men who would apparently prefer to live back in the times when women supposedly knew their place. The thing is that in the little world of composers women are in general discriminated against in all kinds of ways, and certainly in ways that men are not discriminated against in the nursing profession (another stupid analogy, apologies again but it is). I say this because I have decades of experience seeing it go on in numerous different countries. `redressing this balance obviously is going to involve some "positive discrimination" because if it doesn't nothing will change.

But positive discrimination merely addresses the symptoms, which means the underlying problem remains, and as you say, 'nothing will change'.

[MrGongGong]

But positive discrimination merely addresses the symptoms, which means the underlying problem remains, and as you say, 'nothing will change'.

If the only way for women composers to get their music heard is for it to be actively encouraged in this way then we will all benefit (and i'm a Male composer).
Sometimes unless you force an issue it will be ignored regardless of it's merits.

[P. G. Tipps]

Wrong. Do your homework.

Although that would be a first I know. Sorry to sound so intemperate but there seems to be a lot of tiresome sexist crap being thrown around here by men who would apparently prefer to live back in the times when women supposedly knew their place. The thing is that in the little world of composers women are in general discriminated against in all kinds of ways, and certainly in ways that men are not discriminated against in the nursing profession (another stupid analogy, apologies again but it is). I say this because I have decades of experience seeing it go on in numerous different countries. `redressing this balance obviously is going to involve some "positive discrimination" because if it doesn't nothing will change.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion but, rightly or wrongly, I simply do not share it!

I'm not aware that anyone here has suggested that women 'know their place' whatever that's supposed to mean.

I've simply expressed the view that gender-consciousness in WHATEVER direction is wrong when it comes to concert-programming anywhere.

In short, your brand of politics has absolutely no business interfering in my music so please take it elsehwere!

[Beef Oven!]

If the only way for women composers to get their music heard is for it to be actively encouraged in this way then we will all benefit (and i'm a Male composer).
Sometimes unless you force an issue it will be ignored regardless of it's merits.

That does nothing to change my concern.

[teamsaint]

I was at a piano recital in London today, and the audience had, I would say, a substantial, if not overwhelming male majority.
Food for thought in light of this discusion?

[MrGongGong]

That does nothing to change my concern.

You aren't a female composer (I think ?)

I've simply expressed the view that gender-consciousness in WHATEVER direction is wrong when it comes to concert-programming anywhere.

In short, your politics has absolutely no business interfering in my music so please take it elsehwere!

1: Your statement that 'gender-consciousness' is wrong is an opinion that isn't shared by many people

and

2; You don't own music so if you don't want to engage with conversations about it it's YOU who should go elsewhere as THIS is (I think) a forum for discussing music.

[Beef Oven!]

You aren't a female composer (I think ?)

Indeed I'm not a female composer - my concern is about measures that might make us feel good superficially, but do nothing to address the underlying issue, and thereby increase the chances of things remaining the same.

1: Your statement that 'gender-consciousness' is wrong is an opinion that isn't shared by many people

and

2; You don't own music so if you don't want to engage with conversations about it it's YOU who should go elsewhere as THIS is (I think) a forum for discussing music.

These aren't my words, you shouldn't post in a way that makes it look like you are responding to me.

[MrGongGong]

Indeed I'm not a female composer - my concern is about measures that might make us feel good superficially, but do nothing to address the underlying issue, and thereby increase the chances of things remaining the same.

I can see what you are saying BUT the underlying issue isn't addressed unless more people actually HEAR the music in question.
Unless something is done to facilitate this, which DOES mean (IMV) drawing attention, then nothing will change.

These aren't my words, you shouldn't post in a way that makes it look like you are responding to me.

Sorry , I should have tagged that as monkeyboys latest quip