Women Composers' Thread/International Women's Day 2015 on R3

[Richard Barrett]

Given that folks seem to be able to detect other influences by simply listening why not gender?

I think the thing is that the gender of a composer isn't in general any more or less detectable than any other influences on their work. Yes in Monk's case you can tell because she's a singer and obviously has a woman's voice. But even in the case of composer-performers, what about Pauline Oliveros, or Irene Schweizer, or Ellen Fullman? Not all influences are audible.

[MrGongGong]

If you know that the composer is the performer, that's a different matter; I wrote that "it's impossible to tell whether a piece was written by a woman just by listening to it" and that's what I meant - no more, no less. Even listening to a Meredith Monk piece performed by her without knowing who the performer is, you'd not be able to tell, would you?

I'm not sure, I think I might.

I'd hope that you could! - otherwise we'd only have Rachmaninov's piano works played by Rachmaninov or Bacewicz's violin works played by Bacewicz. Most composer/performers (of whom there's still nothing like the large proportion that was once the case when almost every composer performed) don't expect to be the sole interpreters of their works, after all - but perhaps you meant something else that I've yet to grasp about this but, in the meantime, put simply, would you know from the music alone that Lili Boulanger's or Sally Beamish's work was written by a woman or would you only know if you'd been told so?

Well, that's only one model of how music is created, there are many others.

Would you think that Gotterdammerung could have been written by a woman given the cultural and social structures of the time?

I guess what i'm saying is that SOME (not all) work (and this is very true of visual art as well) can be intrinsically about the gender of it's creator.

[MrGongGong]

I think the thing is that the gender of a composer isn't in general any more or less detectable than any other influences on their work. Yes in Monk's case you can tell because she's a singer and obviously has a woman's voice. But even in the case of composer-performers, what about Pauline Oliveros, or Irene Schweizer, or Ellen Fullman? Not all influences are audible.

True, all I was saying was that I think SOMETIMES it is.

[Richard Barrett]

SOMETIMES it is.

Indeed. But returning to Meredith Monk for a moment: if you take a famous example of her work like Dolmen Music is it really possible to tell which of the vocalists was the composer? I mean, if you didn't know in advance and recognise her voice? - and, if so, by what cues would you be recognising it? I'm not trying to pick holes here, I'm just interested in questions like this. They might well become more important in the future given that except in conservative-music circles the model of the non-performing composer seems to be becoming extinct.

[MrGongGong]

Maybe not in Dolmen Music

but Facing North ?

[Richard Barrett]

but Facing North ?

Yes but there are only two voices on that and the other one is male, so it's going to be a lot easier. Perhaps I'm not qualified to talk about this since my stuff has been described by critics as "macho" on at least two occasions... on the other hand one of them was in an interview and the interviewer (Philip Clark since you ask) was unable to justify the epithet when pressed. There is certainly a lot of nonsense said and written about gender in relation to creative musicians, some of it (heaven forfend) even on this thread. (I don't mean you of course!)

[MrGongGong]

There certainly IS a lot of nonsense said and written about gender and music.
There are several composers I know who's music surprises me in the way that it sounds so at odds with their character as people.

[ahinton]

I'm not sure, I think I might.

But how and on what grounds and within what predetermined parameters might you be able to tell whether a work was written by a man or a woman just by listening to it?

Well, that's only one model of how music is created, there are many others.

Sorry, I don't quite get your meaning here. Woman writes piece, it gets performed (whether or not by the composer with or without other performers) and MrGG listens to a recording without being told who the composer is; in what way/s might you perceive the particular model of how it had been created as influencing the extent to which and the means whereby you could conclude whether it had indeed been composed by a woman?

Would you think that Gotterdammerung could have been written by a woman given the cultural and social structures of the time?

"Given the cultural and social structures of the time" it would be hard to imagine a woman writing a symphony of the dimensions of the Eroica or a concerto the size of either of the two for piano by Brahms, let alone a musikdrama of the order of Götterdämmerung, but that says more about those cultural and structures than it does about the extent to which, under different ones, a woman might be capable of such; it has even less to do with whether the end result is unequivocally perceptible as the work of a man or a woman.

I guess what i'm saying is that SOME (not all) work (and this is very true of visual art as well) can be intrinsically about the gender of it's creator.

I'm not necessarily suggesting otherwise but, especially where music is concerned, the question as to whether a work can be "intrinsically about" its creator's gender is a quite different one to that of whether a listener can identify the gender of its composer just by listening to it.

[ahinton]

There certainly IS a lot of nonsense said and written about gender and music.

A lot? Mon Dieu, an entire international academic industry has been founded on it! - so much so, indeed, that one would not have to be especially cynical to deduce motives for its creation, promotion and dissemination.

There are several composers I know who's music surprises me in the way that it sounds so at odds with their character as people.

Yes, but that's another subject altogether and one certainly more than sufficiently interesting to warrant a discussion thread of its own.

[MrGongGong]

But how and on what grounds and within what predetermined parameters might you be able to tell whether a work was written by a man or a woman just by listening to it?

I don't know
which isn't the same as saying it's not possible

Sorry, I don't quite get your meaning here. Woman writes piece, it gets performed (whether or not by the composer with or without other performers) and MrGG listens to a recording without being told who the composer is; in what way/s might you perceive the particular model of how it had been created as influencing the extent to which and the means whereby you could conclude whether it had indeed been composed by a woman?

The model of the 'composer' having the idea for the piece, writing a set of instructions on paper and handing it to other people to play is only one way that music is created.

[P. G. Tipps]

And what do you think is the proportion of women in similar positions in the music world? In other words what was the point of your stupid post?

The point is obvious ...

The fact that you and a couple of others frequently descend to personal abuse when you don't like what you read does not in any way demonstrate the invalidity (or 'stupidity') of the point. In fact, quite the opposite.

You seem to be under the impression that such tactics will cow other posters from posting opinions which you find inconvenient.

I beg you to finally grasp that this will not always work, and most certainly not in my case.

Trust this answers your query.

[ahinton]

But how and on what grounds and within what predetermined parameters might you be able to tell whether a work was written by a man or a woman just by listening to it?

I don't know
which isn't the same as saying it's not possible

OK, but (a) would you say that you can always do it yourself, even if you're not sure how or (b) that you assume that others would be able to do the same, likewise without necessarily knowing how, or both?

The model of the 'composer' having the idea for the piece, writing a set of instructions on paper and handing it to other people to play is only one way that music is created.

I wasn't casting doubt on the fact that this isn't the only possible creative model; au contraire, my question was whether the nature of the creative model, whatever it might be, could make any difference to whether or to what extent the listener can perceive the gender of the composer merely by listening to one of his/her pieces.

[ahinton]

The point is obvious ...

And you "trust (that) this answers (Richard's) query", do you? It most certainly wouldn't have answered mine had I placed it!

The fact that you and a couple of others frequently descend to personal abuse when you don't like what you read does not in any way demonstrate the invalidity (or 'stupidity') of the point. In fact, quite the opposite.

This isn't about what any individual member might or might not "like" in another's post; it's about whether or not something posted is stupid, at the very least in its respondent's opinion. Is no one supposed to criticise anything posted here for stupidity, regardless of the extent thereof?

You seem to be under the impression that such tactics will cow other posters from posting opinions which you find inconvenient.

I don't see from where you've derived that "impression" but I do suspect that it is not especially widely shared here.

[Richard Barrett]

descend to personal abuse

I did not call you stupid, which would have been personal abuse. I called your comment stupid, and pointless, which it was. Anyone can make a stupid comment sometimes. And you did.

[doversoul1]

Mr GG #320

What I would very much like to hear is why one of the most opinionated members of this forum believes that women composers are discriminated, and not the opinions of people whose aims are to promote their causes (this is not to say that I am not interested in such causes but that’s a different matter).

If the graph is meant to show young people’s career aspirations, it merely shows that fewer girls consider music as their future careers. It maybe that girls prefer keeping music as their private interest rather than turning it into a means of earning money. This in itself tells nothing about discrimination.

Do you know what Pete Pan said when he was asked why there were no girls in Never Never Land? He said ‘when a baby falls out the pram in Kensington Gardens, it come here. Girls don’t fall out their prams, they are too clever’. .

That beside, as for a quote, how about this.

...the creative spaces of living composers, 40% of whom are women...

http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2015/mar/05/women-composers-genius-radio-3-international-womens-day

(note: the quote may be seen as being taken out of context)

If you respond to this with more quotes and figures, I feel rather rude but I shall ignore it. So my apologies in advance.

Host: Do you think a new thread will be better for this section so that posts about the music can breathe?