Women Composers' Thread/International Women's Day 2015 on R3

[Serial_Apologist]

As Mélanie Bonis's Trois Femmes de Legende, I don't think I shall ever wipe the recording. Yet unlike many of the other composers featured, Bonis was quite unknown to me.

I have just listened to this (and the rest of the concert), and was much struck by the piece's elusive moods, and also in hearing its Debussy influences so beautifully integrated into its flow and colour. Tailleferre's music always seems to me the closest to Poulenc of Les Six, but without the latter's love of parody and satire. The Boulanger was the only piece I had heard previously - as to where her music might have gone and its lack or otherwise of influence, maybe it's just me, but I seem to detect later echoes in Holst's works, particularly those with choirs, such as the Ode to Death; Honegger actually acknowledged her influence on his harmonic thinking, and the more one listens to his music the more apparent this becomes. In the light of what these women composers had to endure in their private lives I am left marvelling at what they succeeded in creating.

[doversoul1]

Apart from last week’s excellent Composer of the week on Elisabeth Jacquet de La Guerre, yesterday's Early Music Show on Barbara Strozzi was most enjoyable and informative. From a comic song to an absolutely sublime cantata, as well as a lot of insightful information about the world of the 17th century music. Unlike a lot of less-often-played composers’ works, many of the recordings were by some of the top performers currently active. My small complaint is that Strozzi wasn’t exactly a discovery for regular early music listeners. But this is hardly a complaint.

[Roehre]

From the evening concert

Holmès:
Andromede (1883?)
Very wagnerian. Must have known at least Rheingold, as a Fafner-like tune is very well audible.
Fits very well in the then wagnerian Franck (Redemption), d'Indy et al mode.

Lili Boulanger:
D'un matin de Printemps (1917/’18)
Is this the original orchestration? I seem to recall she did not completely finish the orchestration, but the short score is complete with a good range of instructions. Good and a very promising piece, a bit down-to-earth impressionism I'd like to call it.

Tailleferre
Concerto for Two Pianos, Mixed Chorus, Saxophones and Orchestra (1934)
Chansons francaises: nrs 1-3 (1929)
A bit heavy handed Groupe-de-Six pieces, certainly in the same league as Milhaud and Poulenc, perhaps even Honegger; better than Ibert let alone Durey IMVHO. Interesting harmonic lines, inventive colouring (not unexpected given the instrumentation ). Excitement would even be greater if the melodic lines were (even) more sparsely orchestrated

Chaminade:
Concertstück for piano and orchestra in c-sharp minor opus 40 (1888)
Up to contemporary Saint-Saens and d'Indy, strong German influence, not only Wagner.
Should be recorded in the Hyperion romantic piano concerto series

Mélanie Bonis:
Trois Femmes de Légende
-Salome opus 100/ 2
-Ophelia opus 165/ 2
-Cleopatra opus 180/ 2.
The winner of all this. Until now just a name I knew without ever having heard one note of hers.
A bit uneven, but an impressionism which is IMO clearly different from Debussy's or Ravel's.

Glanville-Hicks, Peggy (1912-1990) [ex-Mrs.Bate]
Three Gymnopedies (1953) [TtN]
Undigested influences in a nice orchestral guise.

[ardcarp]

Lili Boulanger:
D'un matin de Printemps (1917/’18)
Is this the original orchestration? I seem to recall she did not completely finish the orchestration, but the short score is complete with a good range of instructions. Good and a very promising piece, a bit down-to-earth impressionism I'd like to call it.

I was lucky enough to perform in two of Lili's Psalm settings for tenor, choir, orchestra and organ, under the stick of an octogenerian Nadia. (This was back in the 1960s) They definitely were all her own work, displaying most original use of the forces...and I'd hardly describe those as 'down to earth impressionism'. She had a unique voice, IMO, but of course died tragically young.

[MrGongGong]

You have posted links and titles several times but I don’t remember reading anything in your words other than ‘oh yes it is’, ‘oh no, it isn’t’ and ‘read this’. And even if you had done, you could repeat it or point to the posts (not those with just links).

Women composers’ own words are, naturally, too subjective and often quoted out of context to be a base of discussion. You are in education, you must know that students always blame teachers for whatever they don’t like.

We need to put women composers words ‘in context’ to understand the situation better.

If you think I/we don’t need your words, we need those links even less. We all know that we can find anything that suits us if we spend long enough Googling about.

But maybe you are more interested in showing (off) how much you know rather than telling us facts?

IF you are too lazy to read anything other than opinions on a message board here you go

One of the most striking aspects of the commentary around Judith Weir’s appointment as Master of the Queen’s Music has been just how much of it has been about her gender – as if somehow her being a woman comes first, and her being a composer comes second. And yet her appointment offers a splendid opportunity to reacquaint ourselves with her many magical, beguiling works; to reflect on the distinctiveness of her compositional voice whether writing for children, amateurs or the CBSO; and to wonder at her ability to talk about music and its value directly and clearly to any kind of audience. This is why she is such a great choice.

Maybe as an industry we should pause and reflect on her appointment, examine our assumptions about women composers and ask ourselves why it is that in 2014 there are still ‘firsts’ for women (something that Marin Alsop commented on when writing about being the first woman to conduct the Last Night of the Proms last year). If we believe that compositional talent is not innately linked to gender, why is there still such inequality? And what can we do to change things?
Let’s start with the numbers…

We could go further – and it gets more depressing. Here are percentages for women involved in the upper echelons of the composing world:

Why is there this funnel effect? Why do women, more than men, lose motivation to continue studying music and musical composition, and why are they then less likely to put themselves forward?

Playing devil’s advocate, I could say that surely all selection and programming decisions need to be gender-blind – in other words, made purely on the basis of quality. Well, quite. But gender-blind is not the same as gender-neutral. Clearly there is something about the classical music industry which fosters an institutional bias against talented women composers coming through. (And, incidentally, the women composers I know would without exception be horrified and feel deeply patronised if they were chosen for anything other than their talent.)

Perhaps there are too many examples of all-male panels, all-male shortlists, all-male programmes? Are there still too few role models? Is it relevant that the significant majority of people taking decisions about which composers to programme or work with are men – the conductors, chief executives, broadcasters and senior composers of the music business? And perhaps, therefore, there isn’t enough of a sense of urgency to address something which they may not realise is not working properly. What assumptions do we hold, consciously or unconsciously, which contribute to this situation?

Sound and Music has sought not only to raise awareness of the issue of the gender gap in composition, but also to lead by example.
To be honest, I don’t know the answers. But those of us who run the institutions that build the foundations upon which a career as a composer is built need to be proactive and progressive in our approach to changing the status quo. As the main agency in the UK for promotion and advocacy of new music and its creators, Sound and Music has sought not only to raise awareness of the issue of the gender gap in composition, but also to lead by example. We’ve introduced guidelines in some of our programmes (where we’re supporting tours, for example) which make clear that we expect to see women composers featured. And we talk about it, including exposing our own record and our process for scrutiny. We never have an all-male selection panel. And in the 20 or so months that I’ve been here, we’ve never had an all-male shortlist of composers, for any opportunity. I’m pleased to report that this has had absolutely no negative impact on quality whatsoever; in fact, it’s been the reverse.

I would also note that (as rather unedifying recent debate about women conductors, or indeed opera singers, has revealed) there is still a strong undercurrent of sexism – by which I mean treatment of people either more or less seriously or respectfully because of their gender – bubbling under the surface of the music industry. What assumptions are we holding, consciously or unconsciously, about women composers? Which leads me back to Judith Weir’s appointment. Let’s celebrate this great appointment and this great composer, and allow her the proper respect she deserves owing to her great talents as a composer and communicator. We must use it as a reminder that there’s a wealth of female composing talent out there, so there is really no excuse for not affording them the serious consideration they deserve. We just all need to try a bit harder.

(from Susanna Eastburn, Chief Executive for Sound and Music, the national agency for new music.)

[MrGongGong]

The silly aspect of all of this - and one which does not in any sense undermine the cause of overlooked composers, be they women or not, is, as I've pointed out before (at the risk of stating the b*****g obvious), that it's impossible to tell whether a piece was written by a woman just by listening to it - and I do believe that this is a not unimportant fact.

Is that true?

I don't think its always the case, Meredith Monk, for example?

music can never be separated from social issues….

Music certainly can't be separated
sometimes from social issues
sometimes from other issues
everything is connected

[Roehre]

I was lucky enough to perform in two of Lili's Psalm settings for tenor, choir, orchestra and organ, under the stick of an octogenerian Nadia. (This was back in the 1960s) They definitely were all her own work, displaying most original use of the forces...and I'd hardly describe those as 'down to earth impressionism'. She had a unique voice, IMO, but of course died tragically young.

The other works of hers are definitely completely hers. You played the also 1918 composed Psalms 24 and 129, which I consider to be stronger works than this little orchestral gem D'Un matin de Printemps (no misunderstanding about that!). Compare all these with the 1913 Pour les funerailles d'un soldat and it's immediately clear what development she went through in those 5 years.
The music of D'Un matin de Printemps is fully hers too, I am only not sure whether she completed (she certainly did begin) the orchestration.

[P. G. Tipps]

The strong undercurrent of 'sexism' that Ms Eastburn is so anxious for the rest of us to notice has apparently not prevented her from reaching the position of Chief Executive for Sound and Music ... ?

Good luck to her in her crusade on behalf of gender-conscious programme planning in order to combat alleged gender-conscious programme planning!

[Richard Barrett]

The strong undercurrent of 'sexism' that Ms Eastburn is so anxious for the rest of us to notice has apparently not prevented her from reaching the position of Chief Executive for Sound and Music ... ?

And what do you think is the proportion of women in similar positions in the music world? In other words what was the point of your stupid post?

[ahinton]

Is that true?

I don't think its always the case, Meredith Monk, for example?

How can you tell with hers, then?

[MrGongGong]

How can you tell with hers, then?

Her own voice is a strong feature for a start.
I don't think (for composer/performers) one can separate the composition from the artist performing.

[Beef Oven!]

I'll be fascinated to see how MrGG wriggles out of this one!

[MrGongGong]

I'll be fascinated to see how MrGG wriggles out of this one!

It's not a wriggle or even a thought through 'stance'
merely that I'm NOT SURE

Given that folks seem to be able to detect other influences by simply listening why not gender?

[ahinton]

Her own voice is a strong feature for a start.

If you know that the composer is the performer, that's a different matter; I wrote that "it's impossible to tell whether a piece was written by a woman just by listening to it" and that's what I meant - no more, no less. Even listening to a Meredith Monk piece performed by her without knowing who the performer is, you'd not be able to tell, would you?

I don't think (for composer/performers) one can separate the composition from the artist performing.

I'd hope that you could! - otherwise we'd only have Rachmaninov's piano works played by Rachmaninov or Bacewicz's violin works played by Bacewicz. Most composer/performers (of whom there's still nothing like the large proportion that was once the case when almost every composer performed) don't expect to be the sole interpreters of their works, after all - but perhaps you meant something else that I've yet to grasp about this but, in the meantime, put simply, would you know from the music alone that Lili Boulanger's or Sally Beamish's work was written by a woman or would you only know if you'd been told so?

[ahinton]

It's not a wriggle or even a thought through 'stance'
merely that I'm NOT SURE

Given that folks seem to be able to detect other influences by simply listening why not gender?

Well, detecting influce is one thing but detecting the composer's gender from his/her music alone is quite another; can you provide any examples of the latter (without reference to what I think to be the distracting factor of the composer/performer in this context)?