Simon Rattle and the new London concert hall...

[Maclintick]

Don't get me wrong, i'm not against concert halls, I spend much of my time in them and some new ones (Harpa Hall last month was wonderful) are fantastic.
BUT this is a vanity project that WILL suck resources from the rest of the country
The "puff" document they produced made great play of how it was going to benefit music education and the whole country
by the time it is built, (if it is built at all ?) how many schools will still have ANY music department at all ?


No mention of what will happen to St Lukes ? Will the money be given back ? and so on

As for the "acoustics argument" it seems to be largely founded in "received wisdom" from people who have little understanding of acoustics in the first place.
Simon Rattle is a great musician BUT he isn't the saviour of anything.

What is interesting to me in the whole debate is that there are several folks who's voices have been notably absent.

Yes, the last thing they want is to be cast as classical music's equivalent of Remoaners, The Rattle Refuseniks. The vanity project rolls on with a cheerleading "interview" of Sir Simon, by Jim Naughtie on the Toady, sorry, Today prog this morning -- SR uttering preposterous guff about his vision being able to "regenerate" the area around the London Wall site, & launching BPO-style outreach programmes. He did concede that similar initiatives have been part & parcel of the LSO's operation for many years, but neglected to mention that community-based schemes such as those at SBC are now very much the norm & have been woven into the orchestral fabric of the UK for a considerable time. Emperor's New Clothes.

Errr, London Wall needs regenerating ? Gimme Strength ! Perhaps in the parallel universe of Planet Rattle, but I can think of areas of the country where land prices per sq. ft lag considerably behind those of the Square Mile, & which could do with a few bob to upgrade or regenerate their inadequate classical music venues. National music resource ? Hah !

[Richard Tarleton]

Tangentially, and here taken, with apologies, totally out of context, I thought of something Richard Barrett said, here....

Many people tend to think of orchestral music as some kind of supreme test of a composer's abilities, but it's never really been at the centre of my way of thinking because I take my inspiration more often from long-term collaborations with individuals and ensembles with whom it's possible to work at the limits of what it's possible to perform and perceive, resulting in music that couldn't have been brought into being by any other means (or, in the first instance, with any other performers). Working for a few days of rehearsals with 80-90 players who for the most part aren't going to engage very closely with the philosophy underlying the music demands a different kind of approach, not a question of "compromise" as such but of the music evolving from a process of putting instruments together rather than so to speak taking them apart. The sound of a solo cello can embody as much complexity and depth as a symphony orchestra, but there has to be something about the music that draws a listener into hearing it that way.

One can be forgiven, listening to Rattle (and I did, this morning), for forgetting that there is any other sort of music.

[Stanfordian]

Yes, the last thing they want is to be cast as classical music's equivalent of Remoaners, The Rattle Refuseniks. The vanity project rolls on with a cheerleading "interview" of Sir Simon, by Jim Naughtie on the Toady, sorry, Today prog this morning -- SR uttering preposterous guff about his vision being able to "regenerate" the area around the London Wall site, & launching BPO-style outreach programmes. He did concede that similar initiatives have been part & parcel of the LSO's operation for many years, but neglected to mention that community-based schemes such as those at SBC are now very much the norm & have been woven into the orchestral fabric of the UK for a considerable time. Emperor's New Clothes.

Errr, London Wall needs regenerating ? Gimme Strength ! Perhaps in the parallel universe of Planet Rattle, but I can think of areas of the country where land prices per sq. ft lag considerably behind those of the Square Mile, & which could do do with a few bob to upgrade or regenerate their inadequate classical music venues. National music resource ? Hah !

Hiya Maclintick,

Maybe Sir Simon of Wannsee could start the ball rollling by putting up some of his own dosh!

[Barbirollians]

It would be a nasty shock for all the ticket resellers of the Albert Hall if they moved the Proms to the new Hall.

[Richard Tarleton]

It would be a nasty shock for all the ticket resellers of the Albert Hall if they moved the Proms to the new Hall.

Are Proms defined by people being able to stand up and walk about (if only in parts of the space)? Just asking. Hopefully the new hall would be an all-seats affair. Also, moving the Proms there would involve exporting all the nonsense which currently only takes place in the Albert Hall to other places which have up till now escaped it. Hyde Park, that's the place for the Proms. Or Kenwood. A tent.

[Barbirollians]

Did the Queen's Hall have lots of promenade space ?

[Maclintick]

Hiya Maclintick,

Maybe Sir Simon of Wannsee could start the ball rollling by putting up some of his own dosh!

If & when this plan comes to fruition we'll all end up paying for it, since the great merchants of the City of London, who are now being courted to cough up the funds, only survive by virtue of the biggest government & taxpayer bail-out in history -- euphemistically labelled as "Quantitative Easing". Somehow this has a much classier ring to it than "Welfare Scrounging".

[Stanfordian]

If & when this plan comes to fruition we'll all end up paying for it, since the great merchants of the City of London, who are now being courted to cough up the funds, only survive by virtue of the biggest government & taxpayer bail-out in history -- euphemistically labelled as "Quantitative Easing". Somehow this has a much classier ring to it than "Welfare Scrounging".

Any London land used for the new concert hall would be much more valuable in pound notes to developers as land used for building million pound homes. Wouldn't it? If so surely there is no chance of it going ahead. Are the existing Lonsdon concert halls that bad and how much of an improvement would a new one be? Marginal gains I fear!

The Philharmonie at Munich is often the brunt of abuse by Mariss Jansons in particular but having sat in various parts of the hall during concerts I have always found the hall pretty good for sound and they want to replace it.

Personally London councils would be better off providing more accomodation for the homeless and making the high rise flats safer for the residents to live in.

[Barbirollians]

Any London land used for the new concert hall would be much more valuable in pound notes to developers as land used for building homes. Wouldn't it? If so surely there is no chance of it going ahead. Are the existing Lonsdon concert halls that bad and how much of an improvement would a new one be? Marginal gains I fear!

The Philharmonie at Munich is often the brunt of abuse by Mariss Jansons in particular but having sat in various parts of the hall during concerts I have always found the hall pretty good for sound and they want to replace it.


Personally London councils would be better off providing more accomodation for the homeless and making the high rise flats safer for the residents to live in.

It isn't that simple I am afraid - housing has to be built and managed by local authorities within the housing revenue account under the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 a measure brought in by Thatcher to prevent rich council tax payers council tax being spent on social housing . That means from council tenants' rents and housing subsidies such as they are nowadays only .

There is little more byzantine and irrational than the arrangements in this country for the funding of social housing .

[David-G]

Are the existing London concert halls that bad and how much of an improvement would a new one be? Marginal gains I fear!

I am assuming that here we are talking about the Festival Hall, the Barbican and the Albert Hall. One only has to visit the Usher Hall in Edinburgh, and compare it to these London halls, to realise that the answer to your question is undoubtedly "Yes" - and that the scope for improvement is enormous.

[Stanfordian]

I am assuming that here we are talking about the Festival Hall, the Barbican and the Albert Hall. One only has to visit the Usher Hall in Edinburgh, and compare it to these London halls, to realise that the answer to your question is undoubtedly "Yes" - and that the scope for improvement is enormous.

Sorry David-G,

No guarantees of success and probable marginal gains in my view. Plus one doesn't know what sound one will be getting with a new hall. Just off the top of my head are two examples I know of: in Munich the best sound comes from the shoe box shape Herkulessaal and on the other hand the "state of the art" Bridgewater Hall, Manchester from 1996 is poor for hearing solo singers. The best sound for orchestral concerts I have heard comes from Semperoper Dresden a traditional opera house that for orchestral concerts the orchestra comes out of the pit onto a temporary stage what is basically walled with plywood. When the Philharmonie, Berlin was newly constructed it wasn't long before the stage was rebuilt at considerable cost. Often the acoustic results of a new hall are dissapointing.

[Maclintick]

Often the acoustic results of a new hall are dissapointing.

Yes, again often a case of emperor's new clothes,IMHO, e.g. the much-trumpeted Philharmonie de Paris -- aesthetic of Stansted Airport, blurry 2.6 secs reverb in which the woodwind are indistinct & the percussion thrown forward by baffles behind the players. Results are often superior in our much-derided London halls, especially where players & conductor have rehearsed attentively & fully accustomed themselves to the acoustic. Examples: Leipzig Gewandhaus/Chailly/Pires & BRSO/Jansons in the Barbican. Sheer delight from start to finish -- sonic alchemy, such that I found myself thinking "How on earth did they do that ?"

[teamsaint]

Yes, again often a case of emperor's new clothes,IMHO, e.g. the much-trumpeted Philharmonie de Paris -- aesthetic of Stansted Airport, blurry 2.6 secs reverb in which the woodwind are indistinct & the percussion thrown forward by baffles behind the players. Results are often superior in our much-derided London halls, especially where players & conductor have rehearsed attentively & fully accustomed themselves to the acoustic. Examples: Leipzig Gewandhaus/Chailly/Pires & BRSO/Jansons in the Barbican. Sheer delight from start to finish -- sonic alchemy, such that I found myself thinking "How on earth did they do that ?"

Have to agree. My experience of the acoustic at the Paris Philharmonie was certainly no better than the RFH or Barbican.

[David-G]

Yes, again often a case of emperor's new clothes,IMHO, e.g. the much-trumpeted Philharmonie de Paris -- aesthetic of Stansted Airport, blurry 2.6 secs reverb in which the woodwind are indistinct & the percussion thrown forward by baffles behind the players. Results are often superior in our much-derided London halls, especially where players & conductor have rehearsed attentively & fully accustomed themselves to the acoustic. Examples: Leipzig Gewandhaus/Chailly/Pires & BRSO/Jansons in the Barbican. Sheer delight from start to finish -- sonic alchemy, such that I found myself thinking "How on earth did they do that ?"

I have only experienced sonic alchemy in the Barbican if I have been sitting in the Stalls - and in the centre Stalls, not the wings. From the Stalls wings, from the Circle, and from the Balcony, the sound tends to be thin and "absent". It is a nice hall, I enjoy concerts there, but sonic alchemy? Only in the centre Stalls.

[HighlandDougie]

I have only experienced sonic alchemy in the Barbican if I have been sitting in the Stalls - and in the centre Stalls, not the wings. From the Stalls wings, from the Circle, and from the Balcony, the sound tends to be thin and "absent". It is a nice hall, I enjoy concerts there, but sonic alchemy? Only in the centre Stalls.

That's very much my experience as well. Having just been booking various LSO concerts over the next few months (in the centre stalls), I note that they have hiked up the prices (by about £15 a ticket) for what I would describe as "bog-standard" repertoire and artists. Not Haitink, not even Sir S. Maybe they are saving up for the new hall...