Karajan documentary! BBC4 Friday 5th December 2014 at 1930-2100

[Beef Oven!]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to attempt a rounded retrospective, and not to close down the discussion as irrelevant. Other great conductors have managed without all the stuff. A lot of what HvK thought would be important parts of his legacy are no longer considered so, and perhaps posterity will, rightly, only focus on the core essentials

I’m not closing down discussion, and I wouldn’t want to. We may be at cross purposes. I am kicking against the immediate focus on the negative things. We have a great documentary and rather than focus on the amazing (and funny) stuff, the focus is on the negative (hence my comment about the music being mitigation).

Not quite how I put it....

No, but it could be interpreted like that.

A very dodgy sentiment indeed .

Not necessarily.

[french frank]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to attempt a rounded retrospective

As I would see it, unless they're writing a book or a thesis, people pick out the odd details that catch their attention, or which occur to them to say. It seems legitimate to respond: "It didn't strike me like that, at all." I'm not sure it's valid to take issue with what they chose to comment on, and suggest they should have focused on something else.

[pastoralguy]

These people we revere, Heifetz, Menuhin, Perlman, Callas, Rostropovich, Pollini, Lang Lang, Rubenstein, Karajan, Solti... etc, etc, etc, are not 'normal' people in the way that MOST of us here are so, I suppose, it's pointless to measure them against ordinary human behaviour.

It's no secret that I'm a bit fan of Ida Haendel but I've experienced an occasion where my idol had feet of clay as well as an occasion reported to me by a friend where she was less than gracious. Does it really matter?

Discuss!

[french frank]

These people we revere, Heifetz, Menuhin, Perlman, Callas, Rostropovich, Pollini, Lang Lang, Rubenstein, Karajan, Solti... etc, etc, etc, are not 'normal' people in the way that MOST of us here are so, I suppose, it's pointless to measure them against ordinary human behaviour.

It's no secret that I'm a bit fan of Ida Haendel but I've experienced an occasion where my idol had feet of clay as well as an occasion reported to me by a friend where she was less than gracious. Does it really matter?

Discuss!

If it matters to someone, it matters to that individual: that doesn't mean it 'matters' in a general sense. But neither is it something that can't be mentioned or discussed.

[Petrushka]

It's a matter of great personal regret that I never saw him - I tried for tickets in May 1972, for the concert that is preserved on BBC Testament SBT1452 of the Pastoral and Ein Heldenleben. I had to settle for listening on Radio 3. Petrushka may well have been there?

Alas not, Richard. I remember the concert well but heard it on R3. I saw Karajan just the once: a towering and unforgettable performance of Bruckner 8 in London on June 19 1979 and it remains one of the greatest concert hall experiences of my life. I was also at the Artists entrance at the RFH prior to that concert when Karajan's car drew up and when he emerged I could not believe how short he was.

All subsequent attempts to see him in London were thwarted in one way or another.

[Beef Oven!]

I saw Karajan just the once: a towering and unforgettable performance of Bruckner 8 in London on June 19 1979 and it remains one of the greatest concert hall experiences of my life. I was also at the Artists entrance at the RFH prior to that concert when Karajan's car drew up and when he emerged I could not believe how short he was.

[Nick Armstrong]

It's a matter of great personal regret that I never saw him - I tried for tickets in May 1972, for the concert that is preserved on BBC Testament SBT1452 of the Pastoral and Ein Heldenleben. I had to settle for listening on Radio 3. Petrushka may well have been there?

I am very glad to say I was at this



and it was unforgettable.

[Beef Oven!]

I am very glad to say I was at this



and it was unforgettable.

[Richard Tarleton]

Moving on, we saw Karajan studying scores. An interesting note from Solti in Solti on Solti - he says, in tones of admiration tinged with envy: "In my case, the entire learning process is slow because I have no visual memory. I cannot look at a score and absorb it, as Toscanini and Karajan were able to do; I have to learn each note individually...."

[mathias broucek]

(And I so wish he'd been a "star in a reasonably priced car"!)

Autosport once ran a story that Herbie had purchased a (rare and expensive) Porsche 959 and "... had a slight 'off' in the grounds of his Salzburg mansion..."

[mathias broucek]

Good call, Beefy ! Of course HvK performed very little British music.

What about this?

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Apr06/Walton1_4574332.htm

[mathias broucek]

Yes - he does this in the famous concert of the Beethoven Ninth from around 1978: the recapitulation in the First movement is earth-shattering as a result.

I also noticed that there were six trombones in the film of the Brahms First!!

This was a conductor who went up to 11

Shades of Jochum and the second set of 11 brass in the finale of Bruckner 5....

[Zucchini]

I tried for tickets in May 1972, for the concert that is preserved on BBC Testament SBT1452 of the Pastoral and Ein Heldenleben. I had to settle for listening on Radio 3. Petrushka may well have been there?

I went to that with a girlfriend We went on the off chance after work and quickly found a pair of returns (at face value). It was the first time I'd heard the extraordinary refinement of the BPO and was hugely impressed. Can't remember the Pastoral. The Heldenleben (which I absolutely detest) showed off the orchestra but it was all too sugary, overpolished and boring (for me).

[Barbirollians]

One big plus for me arising out of the programme is that perhaps 25 years late I have finally acquired the late Bruckner 7 & 8 he recorded with the VPO extraordinary musical experiences almost as if facing death he allowed the walls down.