Karajan documentary! BBC4 Friday 5th December 2014 at 1930-2100

[Richard Tarleton]

No, Beef, it isn't, I just can't be bothered to plough through a long unclassified index. Culshaw's point is that Karajan gave himself airs in non-musical ways, but he (JC) had the highest regard for his music-making and ways of working.

[Beef Oven!]

Love it!

I'm going to remember the coat gambit (not that anyone's ever thrown me their coat...)

Don’t bother, you won’t believe how many of my coats I’ve ruined that way.....

[Beef Oven!]

No, Beef, it isn't, I just can't be bothered to plough through a long unclassified index. Culshaw's point is that Karajan gave himself airs in non-musical ways, but he (JC) had the highest regard for his music-making and ways of working.

Apols Richard for any confusion, I didn’t mean you were making this up! I meant people who write these books!

[Richard Tarleton]

Apols Richard for any confusion, I didn’t mean you were making this up! I meant people who write these books!

The book was written in 1981, when HvK still had a few years to go. I wouldn't suspect JC of making anything up

[Barbirollians]

The book was written in 1981, when HvK still had a few years to go. I wouldn't suspect JC of making anything up

Great stuff -self important is a fair description of him . I am sure he wasn't 't the only one judging by Culshaw's references to Szell and Reiner.

[Beef Oven!]

The book was written in 1981, when HvK still had a few years to go. I wouldn't suspect JC of making anything up

Perhaps, but sometimes people see and hear what they want to.

In the end, to focus on these things is to completely miss the point. It’s incontrovertible that for Karajan, the most important thing was the music - any sense of self-importance (which was completely absent in the documentary) is irrelevant and gives no real understanding of this amazing man and seems to be gratuitous.

[teamsaint]

Perhaps, but sometimes people see and hear what they want to.

In the end, to focus on these things is to completely miss the point. It’s incontrovertible that for Karajan, the most important thing was the music - any sense of self-importance (which was completely absent in the documentary) is irrelevant and gives no real understanding of this amazing man and seems to be gratuitous.

Given the status, money and adulation that people in his situation attract,it would be a miracle if there wasn't a bit of " self importance" in evidence....and you probably need a bit of that to get to and maintain those levels of success.
When it gets out of hand, like certain footy managers, it can be a problem.
What I want to know is how he be both a "pocket battleship "and a tall poppy......

[Beef Oven!]

Given the status, money and adulation that people in his situation attract,it would be a miracle if there wasn't a bit of " self importance" in evidence....and you probably need a bit of that to get to and maintain those levels of success.
When it gets out of hand, like certain footy managers, it can be a problem.
What I want to know is how he be both a "pocket battleship "and a tall poppy......

I think that boxing is a better comparison than football. We didn’t like Nigel Benn, until he got KTFO. We didn’t love ‘Big Frank’ Bruno until he got the snot knocked out of him. We NEVER liked Chris Eubank, because he never got KOd and was rarely beaten, and with the possible exception of Joe Calzaghe, was the best boxer we ever produced. We adored Henry Cooper. That was easy because he got knocked out 9 times and lost 15 times!!

It’s an English thing. We have great difficulty in liking talented successful people.

[Conchis]

I've probably recommended Richard Osborne's exemplary Karajan biography earlier on this thread - it's probably the best biography I've ever read, of anyone. Osborne is a Karajan fan, but not a gushing one, and he is keen to stress that he 'speaks as he finds'. He found Karajan easy to get on with and surprisingly modest:he got off on the right track with HvK after a minor conflation with him over a Gramophone interview, in which Osborne appears not to have been intimidated by his subject. That got him HvK's respect and co-operation in the future. K would probably have nothing but contempt for anyone he perceived as a hack.

[Beef Oven!]

I've probably recommended Richard Osborne's exemplary Karajan biography earlier on this thread - it's probably the best biography I've ever read, of anyone. Osborne is a Karajan fan, but not a gushing one, and he is keen to stress that he 'speaks as he finds'. He found Karajan easy to get on with and surprisingly modest:he got off on the right track with HvK after a minor conflation with him over a Gramophone interview, in which Osborne appears not to have been intimidated by his subject. That got him HvK's respect and co-operation in the future. K would probably have nothing but contempt for anyone he perceived as a hack.

I think modest is a fair description of him. I have the Richard Osborne book, I think I’ll dig it up and reread a few chapters.

[Richard Tarleton]

In the end, to focus on these things is to completely miss the point. It’s incontrovertible that for Karajan, the most important thing was the music - any sense of self-importance (which was completely absent in the documentary) is irrelevant and gives no real understanding of this amazing man and seems to be gratuitous.

Beef, Culshaw too says these were minor issues (see quote above), and focuses on the music making. I merely offered it as further insight in view of the, erm, disagreement earlier . I'd disagree with you about its not being in the documentary, I think we were given ample examples of fairly extreme behaviour in the bits about the BPO, for example - unless you thought all that was normal . Self-importance, narcissism, megalomania, whatever - none of these was a problem to those who stood up to him, or who could see the funny side (Culshaw, Galway). All perfectly forgiveable and forgettable in the presence of the music making and his recorded legacy.

Putting the Record Straight provides fascinating insights into what it was like working with Karajan from one of the great record producers of the 20th century. Culshaw would have made an excellent witness for the documentary. I wrongly stated above that the book was written in 1981 - it was in fact published posthumously in 1981, Culshaw having died of hepatitis aged 56 the year before. He knew Karajan very well, having worked with him on many recordings, both orchestral and operatic. From his Wiki entry:

Culshaw produced many of the conductor Herbert von Karajan's best-known operatic and orchestral sets, which remain in the catalogues four decades later. The opera sets include Tosca, Carmen, Aida, Die Fledermaus and Otello; among the orchestral sets were Holst's The Planets and several Richard Strauss works including the then rarely heard Also sprach Zarathustra.

It's a matter of great personal regret that I never saw him - I tried for tickets in May 1972, for the concert that is preserved on BBC Testament SBT1452 of the Pastoral and Ein Heldenleben. I had to settle for listening on Radio 3. Petrushka may well have been there?

[Barbirollians]

I think the fact that he was so self-important and narcissistic is telling as sometimes it gets greatly in the way of his music making . I once tried to watch one of his films made late in his career , I think it was on Sky Arts and it was unwatchable . This was not as I recall a film with compulsory toupee wearing but the endless concentration on Karajan's face and the way in which it was directed meant it also became unlistenable . The film-making impeded appreciation of the music .

That is not confined to Karajan as far as concerts on TV are concerned and it was interesting on Record Shop day to hear one of the contributors lamenting that Nikolaj Znaider's new Beethoven recording was only on DVD as there is a far smaller market for DVDs of concerts than for CDs and downloads . That facet of Karajan's personality also explains I think to a degree much of the unfair criticism there has been of his recordings since his death . It is an important part of the man and the musician .

[Beef Oven!]

Beef, Culshaw too says these were minor issues (see quote above), and focuses on the music making. I merely offered it as further insight in view of the, erm, disagreement earlier . I'd disagree with you about its not being in the documentary, I think we were given ample examples of fairly extreme behaviour in the bits about the BPO, for example - unless you thought all that was normal . Self-importance, narcissism, megalomania, whatever - none of these was a problem to those who stood up to him, or who could see the funny side (Culshaw, Galway). All perfectly forgiveable and forgettable in the presence of the music making and his recorded legacy.

Putting the Record Straight provides fascinating insights into what it was like working with Karajan from one of the great record producers of the 20th century. Culshaw would have made an excellent witness for the documentary. I wrongly stated above that the book was written in 1981 - it was in fact published posthumously in 1981, Culshaw having died of hepatitis aged 56 the year before. He knew Karajan very well, having worked with him on many recordings, both orchestral and operatic. From his Wiki entry:

It's a matter of great personal regret that I never saw him - I tried for tickets in May 1972, for the concert that is preserved on BBC Testament SBT1452 of the Pastoral and Ein Heldenleben. I had to settle for listening on Radio 3. Petrushka may well have been there?

I challenged the statement ‘ghastly self-importance’ - there were examples of what you call 'fairly extreme behaviour’, behaviour that goes with the territory, IMV (although I struggle with the wigs!), but none of it allows for that statement. On the contrary, it seems from the documentary that Karajan’s guiding principle was the supremacy of the music, all else to be subjugated to that. In that sense he came across as modest.

The frustrating thing in all this is, in Britain particularly IMV (see my post #158), we are so quick to lead off with criticisms of truly talented successful people.

Why does Karajan’s marvellous music making have to be referred to as mitigation for other non-artistic considerations?

“That which is done out of love is always beyond good and evil.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

[Beef Oven!]

I think the fact that he was so self-important and narcissistic is telling as sometimes it gets greatly in the way of his music making . I once tried to watch one of his films made late in his career , I think it was on Sky Arts and it was unwatchable . This was not as I recall a film with compulsory toupee wearing but the endless concentration on Karajan's face and the way in which it was directed meant it also became unlistenable . The film-making impeded appreciation of the music .

That is not confined to Karajan as far as concerts on TV are concerned and it was interesting on Record Shop day to hear one of the contributors lamenting that Nikolaj Znaider's new Beethoven recording was only on DVD as there is a far smaller market for DVDs of concerts than for CDs and downloads . That facet of Karajan's personality also explains I think to a degree much of the unfair criticism there has been of his recordings since his death . It is an important part of the man and the musician .

It is indeed strange that the factually indisputably self-effacing, inarguably non-self important and incontrovertibly un-narcissistic Herbert von Karajan, didn’t make better films.

[Richard Tarleton]

I realise you'll want the last word, Beef, so I'd probably better let you have it. But before you do, I think it's perfectly reasonable to attempt a rounded retrospective, and not to close down the discussion as irrelevant. Other great conductors have managed without all the stuff. A lot of what HvK thought would be important parts of his legacy are no longer considered so, and perhaps posterity will, rightly, only focus on the core essentials

Why does Karajan’s marvellous music making have to be referred to as mitigation for other non-artistic considerations?

Not quite how I put it....

“That which is done out of love is always beyond good and evil.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

A very dodgy sentiment indeed .