Karajan documentary! BBC4 Friday 5th December 2014 at 1930-2100

[Beef Oven!]

Do they?

Of course, wouldn't have all this posting going on if it weren't true!

[Maclintick]

Amateur_51, the behaviour you describe is so prevalent among people who wield any kind of authority that I don't think you can get away with tarring them all with the 'sociopath' brush.

HvK may have been a "sociopath" or a socially-dysfunctional musical genius of a type that is not especially unusual, but in John Bridcut's journalistically-forensic examination of "Das Wunder Karajan" the subject came across as an unworldly idealist who was given far too much "lebensraum" when he became chief conductor of the greatest orchestra in the world.
Karajan as film-auteur of the late-seventies & early eighties emerges as obsessively anal - all that stuff about him requiring the bald-headed faction of the BPO to don wigs - Unbelievable !

Peter Alward's testimony belied the charges that HvK was a dyed-in-the-wool Nazi, & a fair-minded observer would have to conclude, on the evidence marshalled by Bridcut, that in this regard he was no worse than Furtwangler or many others who went through the de-Nazification process.

As to the legacy - It's monumentally impressive, but I can think of other of his contemporaries who IMV equalled & exceeded his achievement e.g. Gunter Wand & Eugen Jochum in Bruckner, Karl Bohm in Mozart & Strauss, & in earlier generations, the Beethoven of Toscanini & Erich Kleiber. That he was a great conductor is inescapable.

I recorded this programme & viewed it yesterday, when the BBC were airing the newly-minted
"BBC Music Awards", from which it is evident that "Music" means pop music to the Corporation at large, despite Tony Hall's much-trumpeted "Push for the Arts" & initiatives such as "Ten Pieces" - ostensibly aimed at giving primary-school children an intro to the classics. Smoke & mirrors....

[amateur51]

Amateur_51, the behaviour you describe is so prevalent among people who wield any kind of authority that I don't think you can get away with tarring them all with the 'sociopath' brush.

You might recall that it was his behaviour that termed sociopathic, so we're probably not that far apart.

However, I repeat, just because certain behaviour is 'so prevalent' is neither here not there; it is deeply unpleasdant, unnecessary and as you say typical of some people who when given power, they abuse it!

[slarty]

Amateur_51, the behaviour you describe is so prevalent among people who wield any kind of authority that I don't think you can get away with tarring them all with the 'sociopath' brush.

And to enlarge on the context: this isn't a shelf-stacker in Tescos we're talking about, taking home the minimum wage. It's a player in the BPO, arguably the wealthiest orchestra in Europe. Playing for them is the equivalent of playing for Chelsea - the man in question probably had a nice second home with a swimming pool, somewhere south of Munich.

And I doubt if Karajan DID get rid of him: German employment legislation being what it is, I don't think even HvK could have got rid of a player he disliked that easily.

Also - I don't think asking someone 'Do you mean that?' and then telling them to go home constitutes the Spanish Inquisition. If you're a professional playing at the highest level, you must expect some kind of scrutiny and be prepared for criticism. After all, it was HvK's 'name' over the door: if his orchestra played less than superbly, he would catch the blame, not them.

The Orchestra in Question was NOT the Berlin Philharmonic. Harnoncourt was recounting an episode that happened when he played cello with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra. The gentleman in question went home but remained a member of the VSO, he just did not play for Karajan again.

The Berlin Philharmonic did not become a fully self governing orchestra until 2001 after a change in the State Law.
The Orchestra members were salaried employees of the City of Berlin and as good as civil servants. Only with Simon Rattle's insistence about being completely self governing did it eventually become so.

[amateur51]

An interview with conductor Manfred Honeck who played violin in VPO under HvK. He has some illuminating things to say and gives a very positive report of the experience.

http://www.classical-scene.com/2014/02/20/honeck-remembers/

[pastoralguy]

An interview with conductor Manfred Honeck who played violin in VPO under HvK. He has some illuminating things to say and gives a very positive report of the experience.

http://www.classical-scene.com/2014/...eck-remembers/

Super. Thank you.

[Conchis]

I had another peep at this programme - the excellence of which wasn't immediately apparent to me - once more before it disappeared into the ether.

The concentration on von K as musician rather than celebrity was refreshing. I especially liked the bit where Mark Elder watched von K putting the Youth Orchestra through its paces, proclaiming him 'a master at work'.

One thing I've remembered from a radio doc on von K: another of his peccadiloes re filming was that the bassoons should never be in shot ('because the bassoon is an ugly instrument'). He must have had a very particular idea of what constituted beauty.

[Stanfordian]

I had another peep at this programme - the excellence of which wasn't immediately apparent to me - once more before it disappeared into the ether.

The concentration on von K as musician rather than celebrity was refreshing. I especially liked the bit where Mark Elder watched von K putting the Youth Orchestra through its paces, proclaiming him 'a master at work'.

One thing I've remembered from a radio doc on von K: another of his peccadiloes re filming was that the bassoons should never be in shot ('because the bassoon is an ugly instrument'). He must have had a very particular idea of what constituted beauty.

Hiya Conhis,

Maybe its perceived ugliness is why bassoonist Sir Mark Elder swapped it for the baton.

[Beef Oven!]

Hiya Conhis,

Maybe its perceived ugliness is why bassoonist Sir Mark Elder swapped it for the baton.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Peter Alward's testimony belied the charges that HvK was a dyed-in-the-wool Nazi, & a fair-minded observer would have to conclude, on the evidence marshalled by Bridcut, that in this regard he was no worse than Furtwangler or many others who went through the de-Nazification process.

Karajan joined the Nazi party. Furtwangler refused. Yet it was WF who had the more difficult time trying to clear his name.

[pastoralguy]

Karajan joined the Nazi party. Furtwangler refused. Yet it was WF who had the more difficult time trying to clear his name.

Furtwangler was an established name whereas Karajan was an up and coming young conductor.

Let's just be glad that we've never been in that position.

[Conchis]

Furtwangler was an established name whereas Karajan was an up and coming young conductor.

Let's just be glad that we've never been in that position.

In Ronald Harwood's play 'Taking Sides', the point is made that Hitler didn't much care for Karajan but was a dyed-in-the-wool Furtwangler fan. This probably accounted for some of the trouble F had with the de-Nazifiers. Hans Hotter faced a similar ordeal - when told that A.H.'s shellac stack in the bunker contained several of his records, Hotter retorted that that had nothing to do with him - 'the Pope owns a few of my records, too, apparently.'

[Stanfordian]

Karajan joined the Nazi party. Furtwangler refused. Yet it was WF who had the more difficult time trying to clear his name.

Eine Alpensinfonie,

It was found that Karajan had actually joined the Nazi party twice. I'm not saying that by way of criticism as I can't blame someone who was trying to assist their career; it's what many people did at that time

[Barbirollians]

He did conduct the early Tchaikovsky symphonies well though on his BPO 1970s recordings - in fact wasn't it the only time he performed them ?

[Roehre]

He did conduct the early Tchaikovsky symphonies well though on his BPO 1970s recordings - in fact wasn't it the only time he performed them ?

Just like his 2nd Vienna school and Mahler recordings, Tchaikovsky 1-3 are works to which he only turned to in the 1970s.

Mind you, Karajan started his career in an environment in which Mahler was not particularly popular, and the same applies to Berg, Schönberg and Webern. Tchaikovsky 1-3 were until the 'seventies considered to be inferior works, just like Dvorak (new numbered) 1-4 and Bruckner 1, 2 and 6. (and even Beethoven 1+2 were quite a lot of time only performed as part of a cycle, hardly otherwise).