Karajan documentary! BBC4 Friday 5th December 2014 at 1930-2100

[Nick Armstrong]

And cardboard never stopped anyone watching Blake 7.

Oh yes it did!!



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(Well it is nearly panto season!)

[Beef Oven!]

Oh yes it did!!



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(Well it is nearly panto season!)

[Petrushka]

I 'witnessed' HvK/BPO at RFH twice, in the mid-70s. The second concert was Beethoven: symphony no. 7 & no. 6, hardly a genrous programme.

But when the BPO was seated we were treated to at least a ten-minute delay Then, gradually, HvK limped and shuffled on-stage, took an age, milking the relieved applause. The performances were fine, although even then I felt that the Pastoral was a fast ride in a rather expensive car, no time to admire the view, no ordure on the whitewall tyres.

I can find no trace of a London concert of Beethoven 6 & 7 in the mid-1970s but there was an even less generous concert given on June 15 1977 of the Beethoven 6 & 5 so presumably this is the one to which you refer? In any event, I would strongly doubt that at that time Karajan would have 'limped and shuffled on stage', surely that came much later as his back problems took their toll? The fast speed of Karajan's Pastoral has often come in for criticism but he never deviated from that view of the work and it's amusing to note that everyone seems to do it that way nowadays!

I find myself much in agreement with what Caliban says in message 84. I also saw Karajan live just the once: a towering performance of the Bruckner 8 on June 19 1979 that will remain one of the truly great concert hall experiences of my life.

Karajan aficionados might like to take a look at this: http://www.karajan.org/jart/prj3/kar...ve-mode=active

[Beef Oven!]

I can find no trace of a London concert of Beethoven 6 & 7 in the mid-1970s but there was even less generous concert given on June 15 1977 of the Beethoven 6 & 5 so presumably this is the one to which you refer? In any event, I would strongly doubt that at that time Karajan would have 'limped and shuffled on stage', surely that came much later as his back problems took their toll? The fast speed of Karajan's Pastoral has often come in for criticism but he never deviated from that view of the work and it's amusing to note that everyone seems to do it that way nowadays!

I find myself much in agreement with what Caliban says in message 84. I also saw Karajan live just the once: a towering performance of the Bruckner 8 on June 19 1979 that will remain one of the truly great concert hall experiences of my life.

Karajan aficionados might like to take a look at this: http://www.karajan.org/jart/prj3/kar...ve-mode=active

And that's what it's really about!

Btw, did you catch the incredible Mahler 6 that he did with the BPO in London 1977?

[Petrushka]

Btw, did you catch the incredible Mahler 6 that he did with the BPO in London 1977?

Regrettably not. I didn't start going to London concerts until the following year. I was dogged by bad luck (sold out, on holiday, work etc) from attending Karajan's later London concerts so the 1979 Bruckner 8 was the only one, sadly.

[Nick Armstrong]

I also saw Karajan live just the once: a towering performance of the Bruckner 8 on June 19 1979 that will remain one of the truly great concert hall experiences of my life.

Wow. There is a clip here, on another website about HvK: http://www.karajan.co.uk/concerts.html

I tried and tried with those late VPO Bruckner 7 & 8 performances that were released on DG but found they were precisely how I don't like my Bruckner (although just about every other comment I've ever read or heard was to the contrary, and the recordings were generally raved about).

[Beef Oven!]

Regrettably not. I didn't start going to London concerts until the following year. I was dogged by bad luck (sold out, on holiday, work etc) from attending Karajan's later London concerts so the 1979 Bruckner 8 was the only one, sadly.

I didn't either, although I was a hardened concert-goer. I was, ahem, let's say into a different style of music in 1977.

Boarders who did attend, have posted very positive words about that concert.

I must say I'm very envious that you attended the BPO with HvK in Bruckner 8! I have only seen the BPO under lesser mortals such as Abbado, Haitink and Rattle

[Karafan]

I liked the comment from the BPO player, asked if the newer, more democratic ways now were better. It is 'easier' now he said, which is not the same thing!

What was the audio recording used of the live finale of Bruckner 8 (?) which unleashed such torrents of applause. Sounded like the kind of thing that usually only happens in Japan when someone like Herbie is visiting! Answers on a postcard...

Yes, the Bruckner 8 was the private audio recording from the Carnegie Hall made on 26th February 1989 and was a marvellous concert which fully warranted the tumultuous applause. Valedictory.

K

[Petrushka]

I didn't either, although I was a hardened concert-goer. I was, ahem, let's say into a different style of music in 1977.

Boarders who did attend, have posted very positive words about that concert.

I must say I'm very envious that you attended the BPO with HvK in Bruckner 8! I have only seen the BPO under lesser mortals such as Abbado, Haitink and Rattle

It's an evening of wonderful memories. I remember going early to the RFH artist's entrance and catching Karajan as he made his way from his car to the hall. It struck me just how short he was. Predictably, the hall was packed and the reception the performance received was like nothing I've witnessed in a concert hall before or since as everyone surged towards the front. The man had a kind of charisma and magnetism that cannot be denied. Incidentally, Karajan used a second timpanist in some of the big moments of the Bruckner, something I've not seen since and it added tremendous weight and power to the music.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Incidentally, Karajan used a second timpanist in some of the big moments of the Bruckner, something I've not seen since and it added tremendous weight and power to the music.

Yes - he does this in the famous concert of the Beethoven Ninth from around 1978: the recapitulation in the First movement is earth-shattering as a result.

I also noticed that there were six trombones in the film of the Brahms First!!


This was a conductor who went up to 11

[Conchis]

Equally interesting is why a few wish to forgive or even ignore some very dodgy sociopathic behaviour and control-freakery.

I don't see any documented evidence of 'sociopathic behaviour'.

Singers, in general, have a very different tale to tell of Karajan: Josephine Veazey (Fricka in his Rheingold) talked about the 'marvellous freedom' he gave her and people like Domingo and Jon Vickers (not a man given to easy praise) had nothing but good things to say about their collaborations.

Nicolai Gedda, in his autobiography, is not so keen, though: von K is about the only person who gets a roasting there.

As regards concert length, BPO/von K concerts starting getting shorter from the late sixties onwards.

[amateur51]

And that's what it's really about!

Btw, did you catch the incredible Mahler 6 that he did with the BPO in London 1977?

The performance with tbe cow bells on a reel-to-reel tape-recorder

[amateur51]

I don't see any documented evidence of 'sociopathic behaviour'.

What about the example of sacking an orchestral player in front of the rest of the orchestra?

[Conchis]

What about the example of sacking an orchestral player in front of the rest of the orchestra?

I believe that was fairly common practice 'in those days' - Karajan wasn't the only one I'm sure. For better or worse, this was the age of the 'conductor as dictator' and people like Szell, Reiner and Toscanini were no better and, arguably, worse.

The Peter Gibbs story was somewhat glossed over in the documentary and there is a fuller account of it in Richard Osborne's biography. Gibbs told Karajan: 'I spent the best years of my life fighting people like you.' To which, Legge responded: 'That will DO, Mr. Gibbs!'

Raymond Leppard (who witnessed the incident) is quoted by Osborne:

'Even later on, after the Philharmonia, when Leader at Covent Garden, there was something unresolved, unsettled in him (Gibbs), perhaps due to the war. Finally it seems he could cope no longer and flew his own small plane out alone above the North Sea and never came back.'

Osborne concludes:

'Karajan, you might say, survived his war; Peter Gibbs was not so lucky.'

[amateur51]

I believe that was fairly common practice 'in those days' - Karajan wasn't the only one I'm sure. For better or worse, this was the age of the 'conductor as dictator' and people like Szell, Reiner and Toscanini were no better and, arguably, worse.

Sociopaths are often highly intelligent and manipulative, caring little for the feelings of others. I don't think that intense musicality is a mitigating factor.