Karajan documentary! BBC4 Friday 5th December 2014 at 1930-2100

[amateur51]

I find it strange how we think it acceptable for a conductor to bully his orchestra on the basis of the results he obtains. Do we accept this kind of behaviour in other walks of life? "Ah, that Wackford Squeers is a bit of a tyrant with the Lower Sixth, but just look at the A-level results..." And in the field of music, dealing with some of the finest creations of the human mind, you would think that it ought to be a collaborative endeavour.

Here is a different philosophy from the late and much-missed Colin Davis, a conductor who started out as a bit of an autocrat with a temper but who realised that this was not the way to go:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/the-chaos-imperative-its-almost-30-years-since-colin-davis-was-rebuffed-by-members-of-the-lso-now-after-holding-a-string-of-other-top-jobs-he-is-to-be-their-principal-conductor-he-gave-michael-white-a-candid-interview-1504301.html

I like particularly this comment of Davis': "'Making music is an ethical activity: it requires you to to work with other people for an idealistic result. And it's an adjunct to civilised existence, because it promotes a vision of order, of how it's possible to co-operate.'"

The end never justifies the means.

I'd been thinking of invoking Sir Colin, aeolium, so thank you

I enjoyed this programme very much, as much for how it confounded as much as it confirmed my opinions of HvK.

I loved the reminiscences of the 1950s Philharmonia players, particularly the woman with the red hair - she can pour my gin any day. Their testimony made it clear that HvK had a personal magnetism which got the best out of them and which they looked forward to. It must have been quite a contrast to working with Klemperer.

However the story of the orchestra member who asked HvK for an apology at the end of the USA tour is a clear example of HvK's narcissism.If you don't respond to a challenge, then it hasn't happened, even though everyone else has heard it. If the challenge persists, then you leave and refuse to return until everyone has heard an apology to you. And because you have not spoken but acted, the event never took place. Your omnipotence and Weltanschauung is intact.

I enjoyed greatly the professional reactions of the conductors and players like Galway listening/watching him and their insights. Harnoncourt was very amusing, particularly the story about HvK's next hairstyle.

I'm going to watch again and I'm sure I'll notice more but a very good film, I thought.

[aeolium]

Toscanini apparently said 'in life democracy, in the arts aristocracy'.

Adding, under his breath, "and in my orchestra, dictatorship!"

The fact that there have been plenty of very fine conductors - and I would include those at the highest level - who have not been tyrants shows that it is not necessary. I would go further and say that it isn't right, it has never been right, and nowadays - fortunately - it is unacceptable.

[teamsaint]

I find it strange how we think it acceptable for a conductor to bully his orchestra on the basis of the results he obtains. Do we accept this kind of behaviour in other walks of life? "Ah, that Wackford Squeers is a bit of a tyrant with the Lower Sixth, but just look at the A-level results..." And in the field of music, dealing with some of the finest creations of the human mind, you would think that it ought to be a collaborative endeavour.

Here is a different philosophy from the late and much-missed Colin Davis, a conductor who started out as a bit of an autocrat with a temper but who realised that this was not the way to go:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/the-chaos-imperative-its-almost-30-years-since-colin-davis-was-rebuffed-by-members-of-the-lso-now-after-holding-a-string-of-other-top-jobs-he-is-to-be-their-principal-conductor-he-gave-michael-white-a-candid-interview-1504301.html

I like particularly this comment of Davis': "'Making music is an ethical activity: it requires you to to work with other people for an idealistic result. And it's an adjunct to civilised existence, because it promotes a vision of order, of how it's possible to co-operate.'"

The end never justifies the means.

Thanks for the excellent link, Aeolium, what a great read that is.

I guess that our issue is to be true to ourselves. As listeners/ consumers we do participate in the complete process, and sometimes it is hard to know what we find personally acceptable,not least because we dont always know the full picture, and because making judgements is a fundamentally flawed activity.

[Nick Armstrong]

"Ah, that Wackford Squeers is a bit of a tyrant with the Lower Sixth, but just look at the A-level results..."

Your whole post was thought-provoking, aeoli, thank you (and for the attachment). I've been pondering about the Karajan phenomenon, having watched the programme yesterday... and still am...

[Beef Oven!]

Adding, under his breath, "and in my orchestra, dictatorship!"

The fact that there have been plenty of very fine conductors - and I would include those at the highest level - who have not been tyrants shows that it is not necessary. I would go further and say that it isn't right, it has never been right, and nowadays - fortunately - it is unacceptable.

We're not talking about fine conductors, we're talking about the very greatest.

Nobody got to the top of any organisation, institution etc without being ruthless, focused and self-believing.

What HvK has given us we should be grateful for, not churlish about. And as for the BPO players, they should more grateful than anyone. They made beautiful music and earned more money than they could have ever imagined, under anyone else (although it was hilarious to hear the story of the Spitfire pilot who hadn't quite understood that the war was over!!).

But wasn't HvK the greatest of them all, anyway?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I like the section inRaising the Wind when Kenneth Williams tries to conduct abprofessional orchestra in a dctatorial way, and the players wreak revemge.

[Beef Oven!]

Your whole post was thought-provoking, aeoli, thank you (and for the attachment). I've been pondering about the Karajan phenomenon, having watched the programme yesterday... and still am...

Just ponder the relevance of the 'Time Tunnel Principle' while you make your mind up!

[mercia]

these days it is common for a conductor to pick out individual players to take a solo bow after a performance. Is this not the antithesis of Karajan who, we were told, would give a signal for the orchestra to leave the platform so that he could return to enjoy the acclaim for himself alone ?

[Beef Oven!]

these days it is common for a conductor to pick out individual players to take a solo bow after a performance. Is this not the antithesis of Karajan who, we were told, would give a signal for the orchestra to leave the platform so that he could return to enjoy the acclaim for himself alone ?

It's not the antithesis of Karajan, it is merely how protocols change over time. And we weren't 'told' that Karajan would signal the orchestra to leave the platform so he could return to enjoy the acclaim. We were told that he indulged in this ridiculous transaction towards the very end of his career. An unrepresentative, unusual thing for him to have done. You make it sound like it was the norm.

Karajan seems to have been 'guilty' of no more than a handful 'regrettable' things. Compared to today's celebrities, he's a paragon of virtue!

The interesting question is, why do so many people 'hate on him' ('scuse the Americanism) or want to publicly 'reserve judgement'?

[amateur51]

It's not the antithesis of Karajan, it is merely how protocols change over time. And we weren't 'told' that Karajan would signal the orchestra to leave the platform so he could return to enjoy the acclaim. We were told that he indulged in this ridiculous transaction towards the very end of his career. An unrepresentative, unusual thing for him to have done. You make it sound like it was the norm.

Karajan seems to have been 'guilty' of no more than a handful 'regrettable' things. Compared to today's celebrities, he's a paragon of virtue!

The interesting question is, why do so many people 'hate on him' ('scuse the Americanism) or want to publicly 'reserve judgement'?

Equally interesting is why a few wish to forgive or even ignore some very dodgy sociopathic behaviour and control-freakery.

[teamsaint]

Equally interesting is why a few wish to forgive or even ignore some very dodgy sociopathic behaviour and control-freakery.

And how it all fits into the current narrative....

[teamsaint]

Beefy,

How do you think this fits with the current narrative around Karajan?

Big celebrities will always attract more scrutiny/adoration/hate/tweets/attention from the tax man.

For Karajan substitute Beckham/posh spice/jagger/DLT/ whoever.

[Beef Oven!]

Beefy,

How do you think this fits with the current narrative around Karajan?

Big celebrities will always attract more scrutiny/adoration/hate/tweets/attention from the tax man.

For Karajan substitute Beckham/posh spice/jagger/DLT/ whoever.

How do you mean 'current narrative'? I'm not sure what you mean.

[teamsaint]

How do you mean 'current narrative'? I'm not sure what you mean.

whatever narrative is current. There is always a narrative. Currently heavily informed by the documentary, for instance.

I'm not agreeing with particular assessment of Karajan's personality, for the reasons stated in an earlier post, but some people do have strong views, (ie that he was a sociopath) and I think it is interesting to see how that ties in with current narrative.

Opinions/views/narratives change, ours as well as those of others.

[Beef Oven!]

whatever narrative is current. There is always a narrative. Currently heavily informed by the documentary, for instance.

I'm not agreeing with particular assessment of Karajan's personality, for the reasons stated in an earlier post, but some people do have strong views, (ie that he was a sociopath) and I think it is interesting to see how that ties in with current narrative.

Opinions/views/narratives change, ours as well as those of others.

Well I was actually commenting on the narrative in here. There's not much of a general narrative, he's not as famous as Beckam et al. I suppose there's a narrative going on in the British HvK Appreciation Society!

It's the overly negative 'narrative' that I was commenting on. He's not my favourite conductor, I prefer Celibidache , Sinopoli, Furtwangler and Boulez over anyone (save Goodall in Wagner), but Karajan is clearly the greatest conductor of all time. So what is the motivation/reason for publicly declaring him a monster, harping on the negatives, or feeling that there is some judgement that must be deferred? I think it's an interesting question, IMV. I don't know the answer (although, I have a view on it)!