Karajan documentary! BBC4 Friday 5th December 2014 at 1930-2100

[Barbirollians]

A good film but plainly Karajan was a nutter

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A good film but plainly Karajan was a nutter

Yes - an utter genius and, at times, an utter shit.


I don't know if I would have liked to have met him socially, but I think I would have liked the opportunity to have worked with him.


(And I so wish he'd been a "star in a reasonably priced car"!)

[Nick Armstrong]

(And I so wish he'd been a "star in a reasonably priced car"!)

[visualnickmos]

Yes - an utter genius and, at times, an utter shit.

(And I so wish he'd been a "star in a reasonably priced car"!)

Yes - he had an unmistakable cruel streak in him, that's for sure - having slept on it, I don't like the man, based on this documentary.

And - a bit of humility wouldn't have gone amiss. Someone like him nowadays wouldn't be taken seriously by many people, thank goodness.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

... seems to me he exemplified a Wagnerian ethic of aesthetic control [and dare one add fuhrer prinzip?] and ambition ... a thoughtful little essay on HvK's ambition

[Barbirollians]

There was one thing that struck me as odd - a suggestion that HVK would not let the BPO work with other orchestras when he was ill with back trouble in the 1970s . Other conductors did of course work with the BPO during his tenure - Barbirolli for example became a regular visitor in the 1960s and Okko Kamu made recordings of Sibelius with them .

[Petrushka]

There was one thing that struck me as odd - a suggestion that HVK would not let the BPO work with other orchestras when he was ill with back trouble in the 1970s . Other conductors did of course work with the BPO during his tenure - Barbirolli for example became a regular visitor in the 1960s and Okko Kamu made recordings of Sibelius with them .

I took the comment as meaning that Karajan didn't want other conductors taking on the concerts he should have conducted if he hadn't been indisposed. It was an ambiguous comment in an otherwise well crafted, well scripted documentary.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In the '70s, Karajan had an exclusive recording contract with the BPO - only Kamu (who'd won the Karajan Conducting competition) was allowed to record with them at this time. Guest conductors worked with the orchestra in concerts (not surprising - Karajan was much criticised for how few concerts he appeared in) but with very few exceptions (the Dresden Meistersinger, the Orchestre de Paris, the Orff, and the VPO Salome) Karajan conducted no other orchestra and came to an agreement with the BPO that they would not record with another conductor.

During his illness, the Orchestra requested that the Live concerts that he had "booked" with them should be taken by other conductors, along with recording sessions whilst he wasn't available.

[aeolium]

I thought it was grotesque, the shameless vanity, the unforgivable rudeness to orchestras and apparent delight in the humiliation of individual orchestral members. Indeed, his whole attitude to music-making seemed dehumanising - just as the orchestral players were airbrushed out of his carefully supervised films and only he himself and the instruments appeared, as if he alone was responsible for the sound that was made. It was good to hear of the Philharmonia violinist who had the courage to stand up to him.

I think it would have been good to have had some commentary from critics about the discography, rather than just comments from those who had been involved in the recordings - from people who admire it like Richard Osborne for instance and perhaps people who don't, like David Cairns (who wrote a highly critical review of a concert given by HvK and the BPO in London in the late 1950s).

What I mainly felt at the end of the programme was relief that the age of the tyrant-conductor is gone, never to return. Surely no orchestra nowadays would put up with the kind of behaviour exhibited by Karajan (and not just him). The conductor to whose will everything and everyone has to bend, and who sees himself as the supreme (and only) fount of musical understanding is simply not credible now.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... seems to me he exemplified a Wagnerian ethic of aesthetic control [and dare one add fuhrer prinzip?] and ambition ... a thoughtful little essay on HvK's ambition

Yes - he was of his time: less "dictatorial" than Toscanini (or Szell or Reiner for that matter), less "democratic" than Abbado or Rattle.

[aeolium]

... seems to me he exemplified a Wagnerian ethic of aesthetic control [and dare one add fuhrer prinzip?] and ambition ... a thoughtful little essay on HvK's ambition

Thanks for that link, calum - I thought the comment by Bruno Walter at the end was exactly right.

[Prommer]

I liked the comment from the BPO player, asked if the newer, more democratic ways now were better. It is 'easier' now he said, which is not the same thing!

What was the audio recording used of the live finale of Bruckner 8 (?) which unleashed such torrents of applause. Sounded like the kind of thing that usually only happens in Japan when someone like Herbie is visiting! Answers on a postcard...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What was the audio recording used of the live finale of Bruckner 8 (?) which unleashed such torrents of applause. Sounded like the kind of thing that usually only happens in Japan when someone like Herbie is visiting! Answers on a postcard...

From the context and caption, I understood it to have been recorded at Karajan's final New York appearance.

[Conchis]

a most engaging and informative film ... i am sure another side or three could be highlighted of such a talented and complex personality

[see also the documentary on Prince also on BBC4 this evening for another example of the Wagnerian artist - in complete control of every detail ... ]



from my read of the film this man did not worship himself, he worshipped the muse and sought its fullest expression with a dedication that said any thing less was an insult to the gods .. aloof, controlling, hyperactive .... such talent is not found in nice rounded and balanced personalities

i must say that the film made me want to scour emusic for those early Philharmonia recordings!

Prince and Karajan: two artists with superficially nothing in common, yet on closer inspection.....


This morning, I've gone back to some of those Philharmonia recordings, specifically the disc of Rossini overtures. My God, they are good! I have to concede that majority critical opinion might be right: his Philharmonia incarnation was his 'best self'. There was something about the combination of a 'young' orchestra and a rising conductor that couldn't be beaten.

[richardfinegold]

... seems to me he exemplified a Wagnerian ethic of aesthetic control [and dare one add fuhrer prinzip?] and ambition ... a thoughtful little essay on HvK's ambition

Thanks for that link, Calum, I enjoyed that.
I think I saw in an earlier post that you were interested in picking up some of the Philharmonia recordings. Warner has released a bunch of boxed sets and they are ridiculously inexpensive.