Karajan documentary! BBC4 Friday 5th December 2014 at 1930-2100

[amateur51]

whatever narrative is current. There is always a narrative. Currently heavily informed by the documentary, for instance.

I'm not agreeing with particular assessment of Karajan's personality, for the reasons stated in an earlier post, but some people do have strong views, (ie that he was a sociopath) and I think it is interesting to see how that ties in with current narrative.

Opinions/views/narratives change, ours as well as those of others.

Just to be clear, I said that some of HvK's behaviour is sociopathic.

[teamsaint]

Just to be clear, I said that some of HvK's behaviour is sociopathic.

And I think I should have said EG, rather than Ie.....and was just using it as an example of the kinds of views that people might hold.

[aeolium]

Nobody got to the top of any organisation, institution etc without being ruthless, focused and self-believing.

I completely disagree. What about Claudio Abbado, who as someone who had grown up through the period of the dictators hated and repudiated the methods of conductors like Toscanini? It's hard to say he failed to reach the top of his profession.

But wasn't HvK the greatest of them all, anyway?

No - though I am no more interested in comparisons between conductors than I am in comparisons between composers.

It is extraordinary to me that after arguably the worst period in the history of human civilization, in which the dominant political philosophy was one of totalitarian fascism and which could easily have triumphed in Europe, an autocratic and authoritarian style of conducting was considered acceptable and even praiseworthy. It's as if nothing had been learnt from the era of the Great Dictators.

[Bryn]

But wasn't HvK the greatest of them all, anyway?

No, not by a long chalk.

[salymap]

I missed the programme but thanks for all the reviews

salymap

[mercia]

I think it must have been Mr Bridcut who harped on about the negative aspects of HvK's personality otherwise we wouldn't have mentioned them. It was these negatives (or absurdities) that I found the most memorable parts of the programme unfortunately.

[Beef Oven!]

It is extraordinary to me that after arguably the worst period in the history of human civilization, in which the dominant political philosophy was one of totalitarian fascism and which could easily have triumphed in Europe, an autocratic and authoritarian style of conducting was considered acceptable and even praiseworthy. It's as if nothing had been learnt from the era of the Great Dictators.

We can have no idea about what was the worst period in history. But anyway, we fought it, we won and we're saved.

And it's got nothing to do with music.

[Beef Oven!]

I think it must have been Mr Bridcut who harped on about the negative aspects of HvK's personality otherwise we wouldn't have mentioned them. It was these negatives (or absurdities) that I found the most memorable parts of the programme unfortunately.

There's the rub!

[Nick Armstrong]

Just ponder the relevance of the 'Time Tunnel Principle' while you make your mind up!

I basically remain of the dualistic view set out here:

plainly Karajan was a nutter

Yes - an utter genius and, at times, an utter shit.

...and I have a sense that the genius side had the upper hand early, esp. in the Philharmonia days, and early Berlin days (some performances of incontrovertible genius), but that the crazed side took over - quite apart from the solo calls after the orchestra had left the stage, or the picking on individuals, the filming side of his legacy is just plain bizarre (the wigs, the cardboard audience, the parallel brass instruments... I always found those Telemondial videos unwatchable, now I realise why).

The film seemed to fall into two halves. The first (doting lady fiddlers notwithstanding) dwelt on the huge ego, the ruthlessness, the wealth and the playboy. The second became increasingly sentimental, the theme being that genius can excuse everything, and here I felt Bridcut went slightly OTT. I didn't mind (in the first half) his technique of 'well-known-figures-emoting' to Karajan recordings. I was particularly struck by Marriner's reaction. He clearly did not like the super-polished, slick Don Juan! OTOH, I just loved Galway, the wag!

I agree mostly, save that I thought the first half did point up the excitement and the charisma and the genius of the young HvK (hence the trembling excitement of all those lady fiddlers ) and that the megalomanic side came in later in the film.

Yes, Marriner's reaction to watching the recording - and the others' - was fascinating; and Galway, hilarious. And some gems of anecdotes (the ?trumpeter who dared tell HvK to sod off as he'd played it this way for Richard Strauss ), and testimony from some of the figures from the BPO in its heyday (esp the oboist Schellenberger, a magnetic player who seemed to be the hub of the orchestra when I heard them live)

And yet... and yet... I think a lot of the people who achieve the best of the best have bizarre / obnoxious / monstrous sides to their character - not all, but many - and HvK was just more visible than most.

The only time I heard HvK and the Berliners live (the final RFH concert, now on Testament: Verklärte Nacht and Brahms 1) was one of the stand-out best concerts of my life.

.


.

[Beef Oven!]

No, not by a long chalk.

You measure it, too?

Tell us more.

[aeolium]

We can have no idea about what was the worst period in history. But anyway, we fought it, we won and we're saved.

And it's got nothing to do with music.

It has everything to do with music, not only in what was composed after it, but in how performers have reacted to it.

[Beef Oven!]

And yet... and yet... The only time I heard HvK and the Berliners live (the final RFH concert, now on Testament: Verklärte Nacht and Brahms 1) was one of the stand-out best concerts of my life.

Now we're getting closer to what it's really about!

[amateur51]

Now we're getting closer to what it's really about!

I 'witnessed' HvK/BPO at RFH twice, in the mid-70s. The second concert was Beethoven: symphony no. 7 & no. 6, hardly a genrous programme.

But when the BPO was seated we were treated to at least a ten-minute delay Then, gradually, HvK limped and shuffled on-stage, took an age, milking the relieved applause. The performances were fine, although even then I felt that the Pastoral was a fast ride in a rather expensive car, no time to admire the view, no ordure on the whitewall tyres.

[Phileas]

...the wigs, the cardboard audience, the parallel brass instruments... I always found those Telemondial videos unwatchable, now I realise why...

It's the first time I've seen clips of the videos - they're bizarre. Were they supposed to compliment the music?

[Beef Oven!]

It's the first time I've seen clips of the videos - they're bizarre. Were they supposed to compliment the music?

That's because you're watching them now, now that bald is cool. It wasn't always like that, despite Kojak and the King Of Siam.

And cardboard never stopped anyone watching Blake 7.