Glazunov Symphonies

[Dave2002]

Because too few performers find sufficient interest in the works to warrent the time required to rehearse and perform them adequately ...

It's amazing that you think performers have a say in this, and I am well aware that some performers are very interested to play different music. One I met and discussed music with briefly was Sebastian Bell, who spent a lot of time playing works by modern composers such as Graham Fitkin. On another, very recent occasion, I sat opposite someone on a train having a discussion about performances of Terry Riley's "In C", and it was clear that she was used to performing in that and other similar works. I do not accept your assertion that there would be a dearth of musicians unwilling to put on unusual works, though obviously if they had to only play such pieces they would eventually scream for going back to some of the more established repertoire.

Also, the standard of musical ability amongst many of the musicians now performing in the UK and elsewhere is such that there really should not be a major requirement to have pieces "in the repertoire" so that players can take the lazy way out, and only play pieces they know. Most professional orchestras nowadays are surely used to having to play new pieces, such as those by H.K. Gruber, Anders Hillborg etc., the notion of "only playing familiar works on auto pilot" has surely long gone.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's amazing that you think performers have a say in this, and I am well aware that some performers are very interested to play different music.

Not sure what you mean by this - are you saying that performers don't "have a say in this"? That Gergiev actually wants to perform Rubbra with the LSO, but is forced against his will to programme Mahler instead? Your references to contemporary Music do not match the case you're trying to make for unfamiliar orchestral repertoire. In C can be perform by as many performers who are available in whatever venue can fit them - Mathias' Second Symphony needs a concert hall, a large orchestra and rehearsal time. No matter if forty members of the orchestra want to perform it, there still has to be a conductor who wishes to conduct it, hire the parts for it and rehearse it before it can be done. Most conductors would prefer to use that time honing their Mahler, Brahms, Shostakovich, Strauss, Beethoven performances - and most audiences would prefer to hear those works. It's amazing that you think it might be otherwise.

[Dave2002]

I think that's just your view. Some conductors, such as Jurowski and Petrenko, and also Rattle seem willing to try other things. I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't do Mahler, Bruckner etc. OK - you are going to say that the "unfamiliar orchestral repertoire" is so because it's not interesting, not very good. While there is some truth in that, there's also the fact that because it doesn't get performed so often that it will remain unfamiliar. I still don't think the players themselves have much of a say in what gets put on, though in the case of the LSO, with its orchestra management it would be interesting to know how that orchestra plans its repertoire.

Re "most audiences" preferences, judging by the half empty halls these days for perfectly reasonable concerts by some very good orchestras and conductors, Fischer's observations re the future of concerts may very well be coming to pass.

[Richard Barrett]

Orchestral performers have little if any say in what is programmed by their orchestra. Conductors have somewhat more but they also have (a) agents concerned about doing what's right for their career and (b) orchestral managements who do the great majority of the programming. Also, the great majority of conductors are themselves pretty unadventurous when it comes to repertoire. What would be good would be if managements didn't have to worry about justifying their orchestra's existence if they play a few concerts to smaller audiences because the repertoire doesn't consist of familiar masterpieces. Then at least the stuff would be played, and obviously the audience isn't going to have a chance to grow if they aren't. I think a lot of it has to do with the myopic way classical music is marketed - the "greatest" composers and works, as if the rest aren't bothering with.

[teamsaint]

statistics are probably hard to come by, but I suspect that much programming is driven by self preservation instincts as much as by actual ticket sales (never mind artistic principle or ideal).

Anecdotally, there are lots of big concerts for well known core repertoire where there are lots of empty seats, ( I know because I attend a fair few) and there are certainly concerts with adventurous programming which attract good audiences, ( Schnittke 1 and also the Ligeti/ Takemitsu concerts at the RFH over the last year were two).

Relying on conductors and performers to widen the concert reperoire is probably, to a certain extent wishful thinking too. Star soloists can be influential, but they have core rep to perfect, careers to protect, and many other pressures. Same is likely true of conductors, and orchestral player are likely pretty powerless, and busy with portfolio careers.
Listening to, studying, judging a really wide range of music is probably a luxury that the keen amateur (listener) has, and the professional can't or doesn't have time for. One might look to the relatively adventurous repertoire choices of " amateur" orchestras for confirmation.

[Dave2002]

Some of the conductors who have (apparently) changed concert goers behaviour are those, like Simon Rattle, who have smuggled in new pieces, or less well known works between other established pot-boilers or masterpieces. Well done those people!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

OK - you are going to say that the "unfamiliar orchestral repertoire" is so because it's not interesting, not very good.

No, I'm bloody not! Kindly refrain from presuming what I am going to say - most of the time even I do not know this. I have been addressing your question "Why isn't this repertoire more frequently performed?" - my answer is that there are not enough conductors who want to programme it (rather than Mahler etc) nor sufficient audience numbers to encourage orchestral managements to wish to chance such programming. If you don't believe this, and Petrenko, Jurowski, Rattle are all begging to put Roussel's First Symphony on their programmes, then how do you answer your own question? If conductors, orchestras and audiences are all eager to perform such repertoire rather than the big names, why do you think they aren't done? I wish they were, but they're not - too few Musicians and audience members are sufficiently interested.

Re "most audiences" preferences, judging by the half empty halls these days for perfectly reasonable concerts by some very good orchestras and conductors, Fischer's observations re the future of concerts may very well be coming to pass.

"Half-empty halls" where, Dave? Birmingham? Manchester? Leeds? Glasgow? Cardiff? Bournemouth?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Orchestral performers have little if any say in what is programmed by their orchestra. Conductors have somewhat more but they also have (a) agents concerned about doing what's right for their career and (b) orchestral managements who do the great majority of the programming. Also, the great majority of conductors are themselves pretty unadventurous when it comes to repertoire. What would be good would be if managements didn't have to worry about justifying their orchestra's existence if they play a few concerts to smaller audiences because the repertoire doesn't consist of familiar masterpieces. Then at least the stuff would be played, and obviously the audience isn't going to have a chance to grow if they aren't. I think a lot of it has to do with the myopic way classical music is marketed - the "greatest" composers and works, as if the rest aren't bothering with.

[Dave2002]

If you don't believe this, and Petrenko, Jurowski, Rattle are all begging to put Roussel's First Symphony on their programmes, then how do you answer your own question?

The logic of that sentence is such that I don't even have to attempt to answer it.

"Half-empty halls" where, Dave? Birmingham? Manchester? Leeds? Glasgow? Cardiff? Bournemouth?

OK - sorry if I've presumed your future writings, and also for my perhaps slight hyperbole re audience attendance. Some of the London concerts I've been to this year (RAH, RFH) haven't actually been that well attended. I don't know about Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, Cardiff or Bournemouth. I had thought that many of the "out of town" cities don't have concerts too frequently, but right now I'm not safe in making that assertion. Both Liverpool and Manchester have reasonable offerings during the next month or so - including Tchaikovsky's Winter Daydreams symphony:

http://tickets.bridgewater-hall.co.uk/

http://www.liverpoolphil.com/14/whats-on-listings/whats-on.html

Birmingham

http://www.thsh.co.uk/whats-on/

I don't know how well attended the events will be.
.

[teamsaint]

The logic of that sentence is such that I don't even have to attempt to answer it.

OK - sorry if I've presumed your future writings, and also for my perhaps slight hyperbole re audience attendance. Some of the London concerts I've been to this year (RAH, RFH) haven't actually been that well attended. I don't know about Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, Cardiff or Bournemouth. I had thought that many of the "out of town" cities don't have concerts too frequently, but right now I'm not safe in making that assertion. Both Liverpool and Manchester have reasonable offerings during the next month or so -

http://tickets.bridgewater-hall.co.uk/

http://www.liverpoolphil.com/14/whats-on-listings/whats-on.html

Birmingham

http://www.thsh.co.uk/whats-on/

I don't know how well attended the events will be.
.

Brahms, Schubert, Strauss. big popular favourites.
Next week. the first concert I clicked on.

a LOT of currently unsold seats.

https://tickets.southbankcentre.co.uk/booking/production/syos/80872?performance=#

Edit: Bridgewater hall this Saturday, Chopin and Elgar, plenty of seats left.

http://tickets.bridgewater-hall.co.uk/single/SYOS.aspx?p=25853

[richardfinegold]

I note the drink references. I liked the story about G drinking vodka through a tube during classes!

Is the Chicago scene good for music? It occurs to me that part of my concern relates to London - where there are often performances from one of the resident orchestras - Philharmonia, LSO, LPO, RPO, BBC SO - plus a few other smaller orchestras. Chicago has, IMO, a very good orchestra, but perhaps that is the only one which is performing regularly in your area. Also, in the UK there are other reachable cities - where there are sometimes very good performances - though generally people in the London area would probably not travel to Birmingham or Bournemouth unless there was something really special, on but for works such as Mahler 8 that would certainly be worthwhile. In the USA you may have further to travel and/or a more awkward journey in order to hear another orchestra - say NY for the NYPO.

OTOH, in the UK, at the furthest reaches, people might find it a challenge even to hear Beethoven's 5 once or twice a year - I'm thinking of parts of Scotland, Wales, and the extreme SW. My earlier comments perhaps have to be taken with this in mind. In my younger days I would travel between cities to hear Mahler symphonies, and indeed I did hear Barbirolli in Manchester on one of my days out. I also heard an early performance of Mahler's 8th in Liverpool - at a time when Mahler was rarely performed, and it was hard to hear the 8th because of the cost and scale of putting it on.

Maybe Ivan Fischer is right - and concerts and orchestras will die out - though I hope not. Some genres of music, such as opera, actually seem to be gaining in popularity.

Certainly we don't have the variety here that London or Berlin has on tap. I do travel at irregular intervals and have seen concerts with the NY Phil and Boston SO in the last month. We also attend community orchestral concerts, where the offerings are sometimes more adventurous. And in the Summer, Carlos Kalmar conducts the Grant Park SO (essentially the Lyric Opera of Chicago Orchestra) in more varied fare than what the CSO tends to offer. The Milwaukee SO, 1.5 hours a way, is quite good, but I haven't made that trek for a while.

[teamsaint]

Just listening to Symphony no 8, and the influence on Elgar , especially in the first movement, sounds very strong, to me.

[ahinton]

Just listening to Symphony no 8, and the influence on Elgar , especially in the first movement, sounds very strong, to me.

Do you mean "on" or "of"?

[Stanfordian]

Just noticed this thread for the Glazunov Symphonies. There is much excellent music to be discovered in these works. I admire the First Symphony that displays his procosity as 16 year old student and I especially enjoy the Fourth and Seventh 'Pastorale' Symphonies.

[teamsaint]

Do you mean "on" or "of"?

I was suggesting that Glazunov might have influenced Elgar,thinking along the lines only that Glazunov 8 was completed before the first two Elgar Syms.