My new piece - Symphonic Suite [WIP]

[kea]

It's also highly unlikely that you would be exposed to no music at all before the age of six. Music exposure generally starts at age zero. Thus by the time you developed those preferences you had 6+ years of experience in music listening behind you, plus 6+ years in developing sapience and an individual personality.

I liked Brahms when I was six, as well as Beethoven and Schubert and lots of other old people music (whereas I didn't like, say, Madonna or Michael Jackson or whatever else was generally popular at the time). How could that be?! Apart from that the radio was usually tuned to a classical music station, my father liked to play Bach and Mozart and Beethoven and Chopin on the piano, and my parents got me a cassette player when I was two. (and most of the cassettes we had in the house, at the time, were either classical music, folk music or books on tape.) And we had friends who would take us to classical concerts. Et cetera. If my dad had played in a rock band instead, or the radio was tuned to the local glitch/noise/underground station or my parents had had no interest in music whatsoever etc, things would have turned out differently.

As for why I developed particular preferences within that limited field of music that I was exposed to (e.g. liked Beethoven, disliked Tchaikovsky...) I suppose that's down to the development of a personality, which in turn is basically internalised habits and judgments influenced by one's immediate environment within the first seven years of one's life (+ the womb environment + genetics).

[Ian]

The fact that they were considered hits makes it more likely that you'd have been exposed to them in the first place, and perhaps repeatedly, and/or maybe with some other associations... there is certainly something memorable (partly as a result of being simple, symmetrical and repetitive) about those pieces, which as a six-year-old you'd be able to latch on to in a way that you might not with say Brahms.

Well yes, the fact that they were popular pieces meant that we had recordings in the house, but we did have loads of military band music and it was the case that Colonel Bogey and a couple more really did seem to stick out to me as having particularly 'good' ideas. And in case the point has been lost, I'm considering why we (or at least I) hear some 'ideas' (combination of notes/harmonies) as having that ingedient x, while others, although similar in lots of respects, don't. (Even if they still might make perfectly good fugue subjects!) Clearly being simple, symmetrical, and repetitive might make something easier to remember, but I don't think that's the same thing. I would doubt if anyone has ever come up with that killer idea by merely filling out a form or ticking the right boxes.

[Ian]

If my dad had played in a rock band instead, or the radio was tuned to the local glitch/noise/underground station or my parents had had no interest in music whatsoever etc, things would have turned out differently.

Not necessarily, my parents didn't really listen to classical music, but I still liked Classical music as much as anything else. However, I was perhaps lucky in that my dad joined the World Record Club. That was a marketing organisation that offered members a choice of LPs every month - but if you didn't make a choice you would be sent the 'editors choice'. After a while the novelty wore off and my dad stopped making choices - the consequence being that a random LP would turn up every month - usually classical. I was the only one in the house that listened to them.

[Richard Barrett]

I would doubt if anyone has ever come up with that killer idea by merely filling out a form or ticking the right boxes.

The "killer idea" itself if also relatively restricted in terms of history and geography, isn't it? I don't imagine it's a meaningful category to someone from outside the Western musical tradition or was to a composer in the Middle Ages. I suppose "L'homme armé" was some kind of a hit tune, but everyone seemed content with it for a few centuries so evidently there wasn't too much pressure for a follow-up. Even now, as the difference between your and kea's accounts shows, the potency of some musical object or other must be more dependent on an inextricable mix of personality and background ("nature and nurture") than of anything more intrinsic to the object. (If this weren't the case, music would long ago have become even more stereotyped than it often is.) But how the aforementioned mix works is anyone's guess, it must be intractably complex... as for me I didn't come from a musical background, my parents were so little interested in music they didn't have a record player, let alone any particular preferences, and I don't remember hearing "classical" music until I was 11 or 12. (So maybe the way to help people appreciate "difficult modern music" and indeed not to find it difficult is to keep them away from any music during their most impressionable years!) (only joking)

[Ian]

The "killer idea" itself if also relatively restricted in terms of history and geography, isn't it? I don't imagine it's a meaningful category to someone from outside the Western musical tradition or was to a composer in the Middle Ages. I suppose "L'homme armé" was some kind of a hit tune, but everyone seemed content with it for a few centuries so evidently there wasn't too much pressure for a follow-up. Even now, as the difference between your and kea's accounts shows, the potency of some musical object or other must be more dependent on an inextricable mix of personality and background ("nature and nurture") than of anything more intrinsic to the object. (If this weren't the case, music would long ago have become even more stereotyped than it often is.) But how the aforementioned mix works is anyone's guess, it must be intractably complex... as for me I didn't come from a musical background, my parents were so little interested in music they didn't have a record player, let alone any particular preferences, and I don't remember hearing "classical" music until I was 11 or 12. (So maybe the way to help people appreciate "difficult modern music" and indeed not to find it difficult is to keep them away from any music during their most impressionable years!) (only joking)

I certainly don't think 'quality', including the concept of the killer idea, which as you say is not universal, (nor is there agreement as to what are the 'killer ideas') is intrinsic to the music - quite the opposite. But whereas it is clear to see why an individual might have thrown in their lot with this or that style of music it's less clear why (some) individuals perceive some ideas as 'better' than others - even within their favourite genres.Probably as many different answers as listeners.

Btw, I have never found any music 'difficult' - basically the secret is to sit down, shut up, and listen - easy-peasy. Ok, it probably helps if you want to like the music...

[Richard Barrett]

Btw, I have never found any music 'difficult'

"Difficult to appreciate" is probably how I should have put it.

[teamsaint]

"Difficult to appreciate" is probably how I should have put it.

FWIW, the music that I tend to find difficult , is usually when the subject matter,(and how it is used) troubles me.

EG: Il Canto Sospeso

or Bish Bosch by Scott Walker.

[Richard Barrett]

EG: Il Canto Sospeso

or Bish Bosch by Scott Walker.

That's not quite the kind of "difficulty" I had in mind, but agreed on both counts. (I suspect many readers would find that Scott Walker album difficult in almost any way you could name!)

[teamsaint]

That's not quite the kind of "difficulty" I had in mind, but agreed on both counts. (I suspect many readers would find that Scott Walker album difficult in almost any way you could name!)

I do realise that probably wasn't what you had in mind, but I guess it isn't unconnected.

The interesting point for me, and perhaps not for others, is that I really like Scott Walkers music in Tilt and The Drift, (and don't have a problem with the sound of BB,) despite , in many places , confronting and using similar material. For me , the problem in Bish Bosch is the balance, and the unremitting nature of that material . So I don't think I can easily justify a position on his work, other that to say two albums work for me and one doesn't.

I won't attempt to comment on Il Canto Sospeso, but it would be very interesting if others would.
But, by the by, I end to get a similar reaction in visual art when a balance feels wrong, for instance in repeated graphic scenes of violence.

[Serial_Apologist]

I won't attempt to comment on Il Canto Sospeso, but it would be very interesting if others would.
But, by the by, I end to get a similar reaction in visual art when a balance feels wrong, for instance in repeated graphic scenes of violence.

I'll have to check if ICS is in my Nonos - most of his stuff from the same period had that strong political message: you'd need to be pretty desensitised not to be disturbed.

A friend of mine had to ask presenters of an exhibition showing Pinochet torture victims to take the pictures down, as he found himself totally unable to deliver the recital he was there to give. That raised uncomfortable issues for me - as indeed it did for him.

[Ian]

"Difficult to appreciate" is probably how I should have put it.

Hard to like, in other words. Obviously I knew that is what you meant, but I do think it is worth articulating the distinction. I admit, that I do find some music harder to like, but that’s no reason why I shouldn’t listen to it - least according to one of my old professors!

[Richard Barrett]

I won't attempt to comment on Il Canto Sospeso

As you'll know, it isn't really possible to listen to Il canto sospeso and understand more than one or two words together most of the time. I would tend to interpret this as being a music which was brought into being through the effect of the words, and the circumstances in which the words were written, at the same time expressing the impossibility of "setting them to music" in a traditionally comprehensible way. But I don't think Nono himself saw it like this. I don't really hold with the idea that there are areas of human experience which are or should be out of bounds to artistic expression. It all depends on how they are expressed. Nono could have treated his material in a sensationalistic way but instead he places it in an uneasy relationship with a highly systematised and seemingly abstract mode of musical expression, which personally I find powerfully moving.

[teamsaint]

As you'll know, it isn't really possible to listen to Il canto sospeso and understand more than one or two words together most of the time. I would tend to interpret this as being a music which was brought into being through the effect of the words, and the circumstances in which the words were written, at the same time expressing the impossibility of "setting them to music" in a traditionally comprehensible way. But I don't think Nono himself saw it like this. I don't really hold with the idea that there are areas of human experience which are or should be out of bounds to artistic expression. It all depends on how they are expressed. Nono could have treated his material in a sensationalistic way but instead he places it in an uneasy relationship with a highly systematised and seemingly abstract mode of musical expression, which personally I find powerfully moving.

Well from my limited exposure to this work, and I have listened again with the lyrics again this evening, I don't think I could disagree with you.
I suppose that part of my problem with the work is its very quality. It is , to my ears, startling, powerful music that, with its lyrics, demands attention. Even if its quality were in doubt, its style hits you right between the eyes.
And that is part of the problem for me, and I feel sure for others with this work. Its just too much..too good..too extraordinary....too close to some very tough truths.

It must take a brave ( well a certain sort of brave anyway)person to try to create art from this material. difficult in the making, and difficult , for some , in the reception.

back to safer territory with Scott Walker, again , what i find difficult is that I know the quality is there. if I thought it was mediocre , or no good, it wouldn't be difficult. At least that is how I see it.