How many arms (or fingers) do you have?

[Pabmusic]

I've been working on an orchestration of three songs by William Denis Browne for a concert next June in London (Andrew Kennedy is the prosed singer). Diaphenia, Epitaph on Salathiel Pavy and To Gratiana Dancing an Singing. I've called them "Three Old English Songs".

Unlike the Butterworth, they're not easily obtainable, so I'm making decent typesettings of all three songs in various keys for voice & piano as well.

Now, I am aware that Stephen Banfield and Trevor Hold in their respective books call Gratiana "one of the six greatest English songs" - and I've loved it for years - but I'd not seen the piano part. I've now seen it, and the autograph, and I'm overwhelmed. I'm a poor pianist at best (and since the stroke can't even attempt anything) but this is another world completely. It's more like a piano duet part. Percy Grainger, eat your heart out. No wonder Denis Browne visited Busoni and gave the first British performance of Berg's piano sonata. Here it is (I've had to do this as five JPEG images I'm afraid since you can't upload documents). But any pianists among you will appreciate what I'm saying. I'd love to see it done live.











If anyone wants a copy, I have pdf files in A, G, F, and E-flat. Links are below.

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/nlc3un5m8m004pu,gxj9j6xoactjxxs,2ppofr9ap4rb2x6,cxlllmsms5hc4mx/shared

Here's Martyn Hill and Roger Vignoles (best version I know - in F):

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/v2bzo2no22e2xxb/41_Browne_(WD)_To_Gratiana_dancing_and_singing,_See!_with_what_constant_motion.mp3

Denis Browne was badly wounded at Achi Baba (3rd battle of Krithia). He could not be evacuated and was left on the battlefield. His body (like George Butterworth's) was never recovered. But he had time to write several 'last letters' - one of which was to E. J. Dent at Cambridge asking him to destroy anything he didn't consider worthy. but also saying that Gratiana should be preserved. Can you imagine? Dent got the help of Steuart Wilson (for whom the song was written - later DG of the BBC) and Vaughan Williams and,within fortnight, had 'culled' much of Denis Browne's output. Browne was 25 when he died. Had he lived, he'd have been a contemporary of another of his circle, Arthur Bliss.

I can't resist these heart-rending stories.

[kea]

It actually wouldn't be too bad once you got into the rhythm of it—there's much worse in Liszt et al., though I appreciate that this is for a song accompaniment and the pianist's much less likely to be of Horowitz calibre. It might actually be more difficult if the hand-crossing was just for a few bars (there are a couple of passages like that in Scarlatti which still require careful attention). Still, the 10ths would be more of a problem for me, but presumably we're allowed to arpeggiate those...

[Dave2002]

It actually wouldn't be too bad once you got into the rhythm of it—there's much worse in Liszt et al., though I appreciate that this is for a song accompaniment and the pianist's much less likely to be of Horowitz calibre. It might actually be more difficult if the hand-crossing was just for a few bars (there are a couple of passages like that in Scarlatti which still require careful attention). Still, the 10ths would be more of a problem for me, but presumably we're allowed to arpeggiate those...

There are (at least) two aspects to this - the tenths in the lower part - not all pianists have hands which are large enough, and simply dexterity. As kea says - this might not present a problem for many virtuoso pianists, such as Alexei Grynyuk whom I heard last night - watch out for him. The hand limitation might be insuperable for some, even very dextrous pianists.

Re problem parts in Scarlatti, the problems might go away on a two manual keyboard.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

For me, it's the layout of the score, with R.H. chords spilling over both staves, that makes it more scary to read.

Perhaps a 3-stave scoring would help? Or not.

But the challenge has been set, and I'll let you know how get on.

[kea]

There are (at least) two aspects to this - the tenths in the lower part - not all pianists have hands which are large enough, and simply dexterity. As kea says - this might not present a problem for many virtuoso pianists, such as Alexei Grynyuk whom I heard last night - watch out for him.

That kind of continual hand-crossing is a problem that should be surmountable with a few weeks' practice for most pianists (not only virtuosos), especially given that the tempo is moderato. Once you're used to moving your left arm back and forth for the whole piece it's just a matter of perfecting your aim. (Helps, also, that the upper L.H. notes are to be taken with a light touch.)

On the other hand I have pretty large/flexible hands for a woman (and a good number of men, I suspect) and can just about reach a 10th... with some preparation time, if it's on the white keys, and if there aren't any notes in the middle. A chord like the one on the third beat of bar 25—or even the one on the downbeat of 50—would be impossible for me. Obviously I can't get my hands surgically enlarged but I can make them more flexible and stretchier, say by practicing Chopin's Op. 10 no. 11 etude for six months or so, and thus be easily able to take 10ths. However I'm not likely to do that and nor are many pianists as that would be an exercise in self-torture for little perceptible gain. Like I said though, one could probably just arpeggiate

Re problem parts in Scarlatti, the problems might go away on a two manual keyboard.

Possibly. There are still some quite big leaps to navigate though, which is a similar principle. (And if you're a fan of Scarlatti anachronistically performed on piano with pedal and everything, as I am, that's obviously not an option.)

[Dave2002]

And if you're a fan of Scarlatti anachronistically performed on piano with pedal and everything, as I am, that's obviously not an option.

Agreed. I hope you enjoy Scarlatti on harpsichords and fortepianos too, though. The pieces can sound rather different. If you get a chance to try a harpsichord or fortepiano, go for it.

As you obviously do play (I hardly ever do now, I've never been much good, and it's a long while since I tried Scarlatti) I'd say that it's better to play the Scarlatti works on a piano than not at all, and very enjoyable, though playing is a different experience from listening. I mentioned Grynyuk in my earlier post, and he played 3 Scarlatti pieces last night. For me that was the weakest part of his recital, as I still don't think the pieces work so well on a piano. Only a few pianists manage to make baroque music come close to working on a piano, but Murray Perahia has done this for me in the past.

[Pabmusic]

…As you obviously do play (I hardly ever do now...

I never could. I envy you...

[ahinton]

I'm no pianist but don't see that this presents a particularly onerous challenge, really; I reckon that I could get my hands around it without much trouble (or could if they were rather larger than they are). It does really call for a pianist who can manage 11ths so that all tenths can be negotiated comfortably and without strain but, that apart, it's not that hard. It's not even necessary to do the hand crossings if it feels more comfortable to play it without. IN comparative terms, there's no shortage of truly serious challenges in the piano parts of songs by Medtner, Rachmaninov and Marx that really do presume the need for a virtuoso pianist!

[kea]

Agreed. I hope you enjoy Scarlatti on harpsichords and fortepianos too, though. The pieces can sound rather different. If you get a chance to try a harpsichord or fortepiano, go for it.

As you obviously do play (I hardly ever do now, I've never been much good, and it's a long while since I tried Scarlatti) I'd say that it's better to play the Scarlatti works on a piano than not at all, and very enjoyable, though playing is a different experience from listening. I mentioned Grynyuk in my earlier post, and he played 3 Scarlatti pieces last night. For me that was the weakest part of his recital, as I still don't think the pieces work so well on a piano. Only a few pianists manage to make baroque music come close to working on a piano, but Murray Perahia has done this for me in the past.

I do play but not as anything more than an amateur. I occasionally remember that playing is great and I should do more of it, and seek out some lessons, but it's hard to keep up the discipline to practice when you don't actually have a piano (and are generally busy with other things).

I've never tried playing a harpsichord or fortepiano (though would like to), but seem to have amassed quite a bit of Scarlatti on piano—Zacharias, Pogo, Tharaud & Tipo at the moment—which I seem to listen to quite a bit more than Scarlatti on the instrument he actually wrote for. Why that is I've no idea since I otherwise seem to have taken to historical instruments with the passion of a convert. For other baroque-on-piano successes I would tentatively nominate András Schiff's second Well-Tempered Clavier and Grigory Sokolov's Art of Fugue but a lot depends on what sort of interpretations most appeal to you (I've never been very taken with Perahia myself so I'm not sure our tastes would have much in common in that regard...)

Bit off topic, sorry!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Getting back on topic, I've managed to play it through reasonably well, and it was as I anticipated - a bit of cheating with some of the 10ths and getting used to the layout of the music - but not impossible.

A great song.

[Pabmusic]

Getting back on topic, I've managed to play it through reasonably well, and it was as I anticipated - a bit of cheating with some of the 10ths and getting used to the layout of the music - but not impossible.

A great song.

Oh, it is...

[EdgeleyRob]

Apologies for being seriously off topic,but people will insist on posting printed music which always fascinates me as I try to become more musically knowledegable.
Probably should be on the musical Q & A thread.

In that piano part the term rit appears and also the instruction slower.

Is there a difference between ritardando,rallentando and declerando ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is there a difference between ritardando,rallentando and declerando ?

There is - but they're interchangeable in practice. Literally, "ritardando" means a sudden drop in speed (held back) for a phrase, or a few bars; "rallentando" indicates a gradual slowing down (easing off) - often before a change of tempo marking. I've very rarely encountered "decelerando".

[Roslynmuse]

There is - but they're interchangeable in practice. Literally, "ritardando" means a sudden drop in speed (held back) for a phrase, or a few bars; "rallentando" indicates a gradual slowing down (easing off) - often before a change of tempo marking. I've very rarely encountered "decelerando".

Just what I was about to write. There are certainly some composers to whom one can confidently attribute these meanings consistently, eg Schumann, Elgar, but perhaps for others we need to look more carefully to decide which is really meant.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There is - but they're interchangeable in practice. Literally, "ritardando" means a sudden drop in speed (held back) for a phrase, or a few bars; "rallentando" indicates a gradual slowing down (easing off) - often before a change of tempo marking.

That's interesting. I thought Ritardando and Rallentando were the same (i.e. gradual slowing down), but that Ritenuto meant a sudden slowing down.

Edit: I've just checked in the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music, which confirms this.
The problem is that rit. is ambiguous.