"Ten Pieces"

[french frank]

One of the reasons why I love music so much is that it doesn't have a "story".
I can sit next to someone in a concert and hear the same thing but have a completely different idea of what it was "about".

But we're not primary school children. I don't associate the music I hear with stories or pictures. And I have to keep very quiet about the fact that I don't experience it 'emotionally' either - which, as I understand , most people seems to think music is "for". To me it's almost exclusively intellectual. And if it seems very emotional - I don't like it!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

My first acquaintance was at primary school: Lamb's Tales from Shakespeare which were read to us. I remember A Midsummer Night's Dream and Romeo and Juliet No more inappropriate than Treasure Island ('One more step, Mr Hands, and I'll blow your brains out' - that was the talk of the playground).

Even that's less gruesome than some nursery rhymes - Jack breaking his crown, cutting off the tails of mice, beheadings in the City of London, a woman marrying a pig, losing one's nose as a result of a malicious blackbird.

Fairy tales are even worse.

[Bax-of-Delights]

Guess what chums?

I love Glyndebourne.

Its on my doorstep (well, 20 minutes drive).
The productions are first class
I've seen many operas that I wouldn't go to London for (Birtwistle, Berg, Debussy)
Tickets are easily available
Tickets are generally cheaper than ROH
and
I enjoy making it a special occasion by donning a dinner jacket and tie.
If that makes me a conservative "grey-hair" (I wish!) then so be it. But I ain't rich.
I refuse to be made to feel guilty about what I enjoy and how I should enjoy it.

And to think that my own musical journey began with Fr.Carolin playing Ibert's Divertissement to a class of 30 12 year-olds in a "general studies" class back in 1962.

[jean]

There is a fundamental question: Does it matter if children never hear or come to appreciate classical music anyway? There's plenty of other music.

I think it matters a lot if they would have come to appreciate it it they'd had the chance.

I think they're more likely to appreciate it if they actually hear some. The risk that they'll be put off if they hear it at the wrong point in their lives is one that has to be taken.

Same with Shakespeare.

[MrGongGong]

But we're not primary school children. I don't associate the music I hear with stories or pictures.!

Nor do I
And primary school children are equally capable of listening to music without imagining images or stories.

TV on the other hand .........

Why do you separate your "intellectual" response from your "emotional" one ? Aren't they part of the same thing?
(a bit OT)

[french frank]

Nor do I
And primary school children are equally capable of listening to music without imagining images or stories.

I would argue that if you are playing such music to a class of primary school children, you have to have a 'hook' to keep them interested. I'm afraid you don't just sit them down and tell them to listen to a piece of music. Not until they're about 42.

[MrGongGong]

I would argue that if you are playing such music to a class of primary school children, you have to have a 'hook' to keep them interested. I'm afraid you don't just sit them down and tell them to listen to a piece of music. Not until they're about 42.

You need a context (again !)

I once sat a primary school class all over an orchestra in a rehearsal
I didn't really need to make up any nonsense for them to be absorbed

Some people don't trust music to be enough IMV
done well its more than you will ever need to keep people of all ages totally absorbed

[aeolium]

Guess what chums?

I love Glyndebourne......

and I refuse to be made to feel guilty about what I enjoy and how I should enjoy it.

Good for you - and no reason to feel guilty. After all, how can you go to Glyndebourne and not dress up (that would be a "special occasion" indeed )?

As I said, I admire Glyndebourne productions, but I just wouldn't go there. I hate dressing up in any kind of suit, ever, and the sight of all those penguin suits would just make me feel uncomfortable being there.

There is another issue here, though. While Glyndebourne itself does not AFAIK take public funds, other opera companies do - the ROH in particular takes a big chunk of Arts Council money, including lottery funds. And the supposed quid pro quo for taking all those funds is that it makes access to its productions more widely available. That means that the image of opera - how it presents itself to the public, not just its core audience - is important. And the kind of dress code which applies at Glyndebourne is reinforcing a stereotype of opera, and opera-goers, that imv does not do it any favours at all. That's why the sort of work that Graham Vick and the BOG have been doing, which I referred to earlier, is important and better for the long-term survival of opera production in this country.

[perhaps this is slightly OT to the main subject about music education for children]

[Bax-of-Delights]

I'm not sure why dinner jackets and ladies' elegant evening wear should make you feel uncomfortable aeolium but hey, horses for courses....
(Let's not forget that the BBC plugged the Proms with KD wearing a ball gown that would look out of place even at Glyndebourne these days.)

Glyndebourne takes no money whatsoever from the public purse, was the first to get itself onto the cinema screens, has a touring opera (just started) at a third of the Festival prices which does not require djs or evening wear, has an excellent outreach programme for schools and premieres new operas aimed at the young who, in due course, will become the grey-hairs continuing to fund the operas.
So, let's not get too sniffy about Glyndebourne.

[jean]

And don't some amateur choirs expect the men to wear DJs?

Having seen the results of leaving men to choose what they think appropriate for concert wear, I think it's wise.

[french frank]

I'm not sure why dinner jackets and ladies' elegant evening wear should make you feel uncomfortable aeolium but hey, horses for courses....

There are people who think that everyone SHOULD dress up just because they are taking the trouble to 'look nice'; tramps spoil their experience, which seems to be just as much about dressing up and champagne picnics as about opera. [But if I have to dress up, I don't want to go. ]

I think the point is that if the image of opera is the Glyndebourne one, when it could just as well be the Big Screen, sitting around on the ground, or up in the gods wearing jeans and duffel coat it won't put off people new to opera. If you're somewhere like the Hippodrome you can be sitting anywhere (and pay any amount) but still dress just as you please. A bit like the Proms

[MrGongGong]

I'm not sure why dinner jackets and ladies' elegant evening wear should make you feel uncomfortable

I don't give a toss about what I look like
BUT
I do understand why some people feel uncomfortable

The perception of who a music is for is important

[Mary Chambers]

We are off topic!

Covent Garden doesn't have a dress code. Wear what you like. I find it rather objectionable, as audience, to be told what to wear. It does put me off Glyndebourne.

[Bax-of-Delights]

And, FF, as I pointed out in my piece above, Glyndebourne does more than many companies to widen their audience. There are many opportunities to see the G productions either on tour or in the cinema which, until very recently, has not been the case with ROH or ENO. I don't see it as being exclusive to have a few weeks in the summer where one can view opera and enjoy wearing a dj or a fancy frock. Perhaps it is some years since you visited (?) but I can attest to the fact that I have seen all kinds of wear (but perhaps not quite of the tramp variety) in recent seasons.
Your picture shows a group of Bright Young Things. What can we deduce from it? Well, nothing really except that they are young and seem to be enjoying themselves (despite the rain) although I have to say brown shoes with black dinner jacket is not on really. Perhaps he ain't been brung up proper?

[Bax-of-Delights]

We are off topic!

Covent Garden doesn't have a dress code. Wear what you like. I find it rather objectionable, as audience, to be told what to wear. It does put me off Glyndebourne.

Glyndebourne only suggests what you can wear. As I have replied to FF, these days, virtually anything goes - and no-one bats an eyelid.

And isn't this thread about how to get youngsters interested in classical music and the perception pushed by the media (including the BBC) of it being "difficult" or for "toffs" (god, how I hate that word - so Woosterish).