"Ten Pieces"

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Ah, the penguin suit one again.

Let's think about this. Young people look forward to their Year 11 "Prom", in which they aspire to wear evening dress - some even asking me how to tie a bow-tie. A few may mock it, but it is so often assumed that it is a majority.

They are more likely to mock Nigel Kennedy in his bin-liner.

[french frank]

Very, very odd. There was an item about this on television news, which seemed to work on the principle that of course children don't like classical music, but it may be possible to convince them it isn't too bad after all. Strange assumptions.

Similar point to the one I made earlier: other people projecting their own views on children.

Gongers has a certain point, in that I would avoid Glyndebourne myself on the basis of the images, which I assume represent the reality of opera in such a location. But there is plenty of other stuff around, like in the slip seats at Bristol Hippo or the Big Screen relays, cheap and democratic - and it isn't always the 'enthusiasts' who are responsible for the 'Glyndebourne image'.

[aeolium]

Gongers has a certain point, in that I would avoid Glyndebourne myself on the basis of the images, which I assume represent the reality of opera in such a location. But there is plenty of other stuff around, like in the slip seats at Bristol Hippo or the Big Screen relays, cheap and democratic - and it isn't always the 'enthusiasts' who are responsible for the 'Glyndebourne image'.

I agree. I wouldn't go to Glyndebourne because of its image, even though I admire Glyndebourne productions I have seen on screen (and even if I could afford and get access to tickets). It doesn't put me off going to opera elsewhere, mainly Cardiff, where there is a generally high standard of music-making and dress code is pretty relaxed, to the point where there doesn't seem to be a code at all.

Maybe the enthusiasts are not responsible for the Glyndebourne image, but surely Glyndebourne itself has some responsibility. Why would you allow the continuance of a tradition which suggests that opera is really a luxury, exclusive product for the wealthy and the "better class of society" unless that is the image you want to project? How could anyone at Glyndebourne think that that image would not be off-putting for many who see it (some of whom, e.g. those going to a Glyndebourne production at the Proms, might actually respond to the music)?

[Mary Chambers]

I wonder how many people who think classical music is boring and have somehow passed that idea on to children are aware of Glyndebourne's image, or even know Glyndebourne exists?

[jean]

I am still puzzled over why people were arguing so strenuously elsewhere that children should not be allowed near Shakespeare until they were ready to make their A level choices.

A few years ago Opera North did an admirable bit of outreach that involved bringin large groups of schoolchildren to their production of Verdi's Macbeth. I have watched the play many times in an auditorium full of schoolchildren, and I've never known any behave as badly as quite a few of them did at the opera.

[mercia]

I'm sure I've been told on this forum that 'normally' people don't start listening to classical music until their middle age and that this was why it was so pointless for Radio 3 to relentlessly pursue more listeners from younger age groups.

[aeolium]

I am still puzzled over why people were arguing so strenuously elsewhere that children should not be allowed near Shakespeare until they were ready to make their A level choices.

That wasn't quite my argument, which was that it should not be a compulsory requirement to learn Shakespeare to exam level in school.

But returning to the point about opera image, I was really impressed with a project Graham Vick did with Birmingham Opera Company a few years ago, staging Verdi's Otello (in English) and involving the audience partly as spectators, partly as participants. It was staged in a disused factory and the audience was of people of all ages and ethnicity. Here is a review. I had my misgivings before watching the TV broadcast of one of the performances but was hugely impressed. That to me is one way in which opera can reach beyond its usual audience.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm sure I've been told on this forum that 'normally' people don't start listening to classical music until their middle age and that this was why it was so pointless for Radio 3 to relentlessly pursue more listeners from younger age groups.

Not quite what I have said on this Forum, mercs - or, at least, not what I intended to communicate (which, of course, is not necessarily the same thing).

What I think is true is that most of the audiences for mainstream repertoire tend to be middle-aged and older - and that (from my own experiences) that has always been the case. That this audience is not getting smaller suggests that this Music is something that many people come to in later life (whether because they are "more mature" or simply "older" is beside the point). It does not have to be seen as a "crisis" or prophetic of the extinction of concerts from this repertoire; but the Beeb frequently appears to be acting as if this is exactly how they see it - that low numbers of teenagers and people in their twenties listening to R3 is an inevitable portent of doom and that desperate measures are needed to get wider audiences. And "desperate" measures are indeed taken - with results that alienate many of the traditional audience whilst attracting merely the scorn of many in the target age group (again basing this on my own experience trying to make teenagers [14 - 19] aware of the channel over a thirty-plus year career).

But "many", "most" indicates that there are younger people who are attracted to the repertoire (as, again, has always been the case in my experience - I have always seen a decent number of people under forty regularly attending concerts ever since the days when I was amongst their number right up until today). "Relentless" persual isn't what is needed - just decent broadcasting.

The "Ten Pieces" project is, perhaps, different: aimed at the CBBC age group, and adopting the presentation style that that channel regularly uses. It's an education project and, as such, will have flaws that individuals will react against. But, as a mass media educational project it looks pretty damn fine to me.

Now - when are they going to do something similar for Jazz?

[jean]

Perhaps we could agree, then, that children might fruitfully be introduced to Shakespeare at school so long as we don't. Try to examine what they get out of it?

I don't think my comment about ON's Verdi Macbeth os so off topic, actually - who knows how much the image of opera contributed to the children I watched it with being quite unable to appreciate it?

[MrGongGong]

I agree. I wouldn't go to Glyndebourne because of its image,

I would go, I don't give a toss about that and never really did
BUT
I realised many years ago that i'm NOT typical ()

I'm sure I've been told on this forum that 'normally' people don't start listening to classical music until their middle age and that this was why it was so pointless for Radio 3 to relentlessly pursue more listeners from younger age groups.

Indeed

Maybe the enthusiasts are not responsible for the Glyndebourne image, but surely Glyndebourne itself has some responsibility.

I can't speak for them
but I know that these issues are often discussed
The problem is that opera houses, orchestras, venues etc don't control how their image is in the media.
They can't.
Even when it's pointed out that it's cheaper than football
That you DON'T have to dress like a 1950's Office worker
That "classical music" HASN'T been removed from education
etc etc etc people STILL want to believe the narrative that says otherwise.

Even the the OAE has the most "unstuffy" marketing
and so on .........

[french frank]

Perhaps we could agree, then, that children might fruitfully be introduced to Shakespeare at school so long as we don't. Try to examine what they get out of it?

My first acquaintance was at primary school: Lamb's Tales from Shakespeare which were read to us. I remember A Midsummer Night's Dream and Romeo and Juliet No more inappropriate than Treasure Island ('One more step, Mr Hands, and I'll blow your brains out' - that was the talk of the playground).

[jean]

In the previous discussion, it seemed to be language rather that content that was thought to render Shakespeare unsuitable for (most) children.

Is the 'language' of music less obscure?

During the Verdi Macbeth I mentioned, one child leapt to his feet and launched into 'Just one cornetto...' So connexions were certainly being made and pertinent criticism offered. (It would have been funny if I hadn't paid quite a lot for my ticket.)

[french frank]

In the previous discussion, it seemed to be language rather that content that was thought to render Shakespeare unsuitable for (most) children.

I would probably incline to that point of view - which is why the stories seem a good way in (even if they aren't Shakespeare's). This is why I feel that the 'story' (non-music) approach to music works for young children.

There is a fundamental question: Does it matter if children never hear or come to appreciate classical music anyway? There's plenty of other music.

In many cases, the answer seems to be strongly influenced by how much one appreciates classical music compared with 'other' music.

[MrGongGong]

This is why I feel that the 'story' (non-music) approach to music works for young children.

One of the reasons why I love music so much is that it doesn't have a "story".
I can sit next to someone in a concert and hear the same thing but have a completely different idea of what it was "about".
Some stories are useful, but sometimes (and I encounter this often in composition projects with students) the "story" gets in the way of the music. People will throw away good ideas because they don't "fit" the story.
Music that is "about" SOUNDS would seem to be a good way to go (NOT exclusively).

TV is, of course, ALL about stories.
It could have developed in a different way, but what we have is TV that is all about theatre and narrative.
This could be one reason why so much television that is about music (as opposed to broadcasts of performances) is usually so cr*p.

[aeolium]

Perhaps we could agree, then, that children might fruitfully be introduced to Shakespeare at school so long as we don't. Try to examine what they get out of it?

Yes (I assume this is a single sentence) - I would agree with that, though I think it would need to be done imaginatively. At least then children would be open to the experience without the feeling that their lack of understanding would be held against them (as it is in the exam format, I mean). And also for music, not just opera but other types of music that they would not normally be exposed to.