Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra’s new Chief Conductor....

[Tapiola]

I've never understood the Mengelberg euphoria - maybe it's the old sound but to me there was always too much false rubato.

No huge fan of Mengelberg, cloughie, for the reason you state (old school rubato), but that sound...

I write in half-jest, as I hope you all know.

[Petrushka]

It seems Uncle B will never go back to the Concertgebouw which is just daft. What a waste.

Can't really disagree on your Jansons point.

Agree on both counts.

Try comparisons between Jansons BRSO and RCO recordings of both Mahler 3 and Mahler 5 if you can get them. I got my copies of the BRSO from Amazon.de and the plain fact of the matter is that the BRSO performances are different class. They are vastly preferable and in great sound. Somehow, I don't think that Jansons was entirely happy in Amsterdam and I'm not surprised that he has decided to base himself in Munich.

[hedgehog]

Well, I'm very disappointed with the appointment of Gatti. Completely aside on whether he is a good conductor and/or interpreter of Mahler & Beethoven - well no not completely aside, that's the problem as I see it, a too limited conductor in terms of repertoire - not much hope for 20th Century stuff (edit: beyond the standard, early part of the century repertoire) let alone new works. In a certain sense perhaps the success of the Muziekgebouw aan 't IJ in Amsterdam has meant that the Concertgebouw can retreat into its musty 19th Century architecture, but it's sad and I don't think a way forward for the Orchestra itself.

[bluestateprommer]

Somehow, I don't think that Jansons was entirely happy in Amsterdam and I'm not surprised that he has decided to base himself in Munich.

I would actually dissent from my learned colleague Petrushka, based on the reasons explained in this New York Times article, which I suspected was the reason why Jansons is stepping down from the KCO and wants to devote full time to the BRSO, namely to fight as much as possible in the time that he has left to get the BRSO a 1st class hall (or a least a much less bad 2nd or 3rd class hall). If you think about it, in Amsterdam, Jansons had one of the best and most loved orchestras in one of the best and most loved concert halls in the world to do work. In a sense, there was no "struggle" in Amsterdam, like what he has in Munich to get the BRSO the hall that he feels that they deserve.

I'll admit that the KCO's election of Gatti as their new chief conductor surprised me, like many on the forum here. I probably wouldn't have chosen him first, but then back in 1985, I probably would not have chosen Chailly either. There is some context to consider in their choice of Gatti, with some sure facts and idle speculation among the context, namely:

(1) Sure fact: the news about Jansons leaving broke in March. Given that the Berlin Phil and the LSO are also looking for chief conductors now, the KCO knew that they had to act fast. Clearly, they did. Compare the time here, less than 6 months, with the on-going Berlin Phil "who's next?" soap opera that's been open for going on 2 years very soon.

(2) Idle speculation: the KCO also had to act fast with the knowledge that they might not get their first choice, and that they might have to go for '2nd best' or otherwise. It's probably not too much of a stretch to imagine that they would have wanted Andris Nelsons as 1st choice, with perhaps Ivan Fischer as a close 2nd. But Nelsons committed to Boston before the news about Jansons broke, and Fischer already has the Budapest Festival Orchestra as well as management of the Konzerthaus Berlin's programming, and the resident orchestra there. I also imagine that IF is very concerned about the political situation in Hungary, with the very nasty sharp right turn in politics there. So perhaps neither of those gentlemen was available, or able to commit the time that the KCO needs and deserves. (Plus, if nothing else, Nelsons isn't even 40 yet. As long as he takes care of himself and doesn't get stretched or stretch himself too thin, there's always a future possibility that he'll get the post down the line. Plus, too soon after Jansons might have been too much like "more of the same".)

(3) Something in the middle: Gatti first conducted the KCO in 2004, and has been back regularly with them since. Even if he wasn't necessarily 1st/2nd choice, the KCO had their eyes wide open when they voted for their next conductor, and I doubt that this was a situation of any one party or agency forcing any particular conductor down their throats (like the Eschenbach and Philadelphia mess years ago). In short, they presumably have a good working relationship, and both sides know what they're getting into, and are willing to take the chance. Plus, because the KCO can command a starry roster of guests, so if one doesn't like Gatti, there will be plenty of other options for concert-going.

In general, I agree that Gatti isn't a particularly imaginative or forward-looking concert programmer. But currently, the KCO has worries like subsidy cuts, so Gatti might try to help out there. And obviously there's no way to know this, but if maybe he can mend the rift between Haitink and the KCO management, and get 'Uncle Bernie' back with the KCO as a guest, that would be some achievement. (It might be time to call in the conductor's spouses on this one for some behind-the-scenes diplomacy.)

(Plus, and I know that this is not PC on this forum, but I'm not at all convinced that the fault is all with the management on this rift. I remember reading something about Haitink saying that he wasn't a big enough man to forgive perceived slights against him. He might need to learn to become a big enough man that way. He's great, but he isn't the only fish in the conductor pond, marvelous as it is that we still have him around.)

[Alison]

For all his genuine modesty on the podium I could imagine Uncle Bernie being an awkward cuss with orchestral managements. There have been a few tiffs over the years after all. Such a shame when the orchestra and conductor appear to be made for each other. No offence to either but Chailly was made for Leipzig, Jansons for Munich. Bernard was the man for Amsterdam.

[bluestateprommer]

For anyone who wants to sample Gatti's work with the KCO since the announcement of his appointment:

(a) Mahler 6, 30 Nov 2014 (point in his favor with me, at least: he positions the middle movements Scherzo - Andante [YES!!!!!!!])

(b) Schumann, Berg & Wagner, 4 Dec 2014 (Leonidas Kavakos, violin soloist)

(c) Mahler 3, 16 Jan 2015 (Christianne Stotijn, mezzo soloist)

James Jolly is inclined to give Gatti the benefit of the doubt here, regarding DG's appointment to the KCO. I haven't had time to sample all the material above, but at a guess, Gatti might steer a middle ground between Chailly and Jansons. Chailly got a few brickbats for 'roughening up' the KCO sound a bit, but Jansons got praise for restoring the "old Concertgebouw sound". I think that Gatti's tendency to focus on the late 19th century repertoire, not to mention Italian opera, will lean him more to the Jansons camp in terms of the KCO's overall sound. In any case, I certainly want the partnership to thrive, as I have no wish to see the KCO go down at all, because of money problems or anything else.

For all his genuine modesty on the podium I could imagine Uncle Bernie being an awkward cuss with orchestral managements. There have been a few tiffs over the years after all. Such a shame when the orchestra and conductor appear to be made for each other. No offence to either but Chailly was made for Leipzig, Jansons for Munich. Bernard was the man for Amsterdam.

Part of me wonders what might have happened if Marius Flothuis had remained the orchestra's artistic administrator past 1974, which was well into Haitink's tenure. From what I can tell, Haitink worked well with Flothuis on programming. Flothuis lived until 2001, so if he'd stayed with the orchestra another 5 years......well, we can't rewind the clock.

[Beef Oven!]

In 2006, I attended the 60th Anniversary of it's (RPO) first performance under Thomas Beecham - Mahler 8

I really did not enjoy his conducting at all. He seemed to conduct it as if it were a musical or a film score. Now I must be wrong, because he gets great reviews, and those reviewers know more about music than me (after all, I was distinctly underwhelmed by the Emersons in London, last November, and they must have been brilliant).

[alywin]

I would actually dissent from my learned colleague Petrushka, based on the reasons explained in this New York Times article, which I suspected was the reason why Jansons is stepping down from the KCO and wants to devote full time to the BRSO, namely to fight as much as possible in the time that he has left to get the BRSO a 1st class hall (or a least a much less bad 2nd or 3rd class hall). If you think about it, in Amsterdam, Jansons had one of the best and most loved orchestras in one of the best and most loved concert halls in the world to do work. In a sense, there was no "struggle" in Amsterdam, like what he has in Munich to get the BRSO the hall that he feels that they deserve.

Well, best of luck to him, then. Didn't he leave the Oslo Phil in the first place because he didn't manage to convince the powers that be to build *them* a new hall? As for "struggle", I don't know, maybe it's the type of works he's had to programme, but I have felt that some of the performances he's done with the KCO have been perhaps a little too slick, and somewhat lacking in the electricity which I've always felt his best concerts had.

And I *love*, from the NYT article, the whole concept of “We have three world-class orchestras in Munich and therefore we need three concert halls to properly promote them.” Only in Germany?

[bluestateprommer]

The KCO has their new 2016-2017 season up for perusal:

http://www.concertgebouworkest.nl/Global/Documents/seizoensbrochures/RCOamsterdam-seizoensbrochure1617.pdf

Of course, the date that most Forumites are interested in is the return of 'Uncle Bernie' to the KCO, which, to spare everyone the suspense, will be as follows:

Thursday, Feb. 16, 2017, 8:15 PM
Friday, Feb. 17, 2017, 8:15 PM
Sunday, Feb. 20, 2017, 2:15 PM

Debussy: Trois Nocturnes (with the ladies of the Nederlands Kammerkoor)
Bruckner: Symphony No. 7

[Cockney Sparrow]

In 2006, I attended the 60th Anniversary of it's (RPO) first performance under Thomas Beecham - Mahler 8

I really did not enjoy his conducting at all. He seemed to conduct it as if it were a musical or a film score. Now I must be wrong, because he gets great reviews, and those reviewers know more about music than me (after all, I was distinctly underwhelmed by the Emersons in London, last November, and they must have been brilliant).

I was there (took my children to their first Mahler 8) and it was quite well done. With that piece, if it has the detached brass (essential in RaHall) and soloists who all, at the least can achieve the basic standard, and sticks together then that's an achievement and a good starting point. And Gatti delivered a good performance (not sure it fell into the inspired category but as I say the downside risks are so great). So I was happy, and relieved....
(Contrasted with Maazel in the same hall, who pulled the piece around so much I wanted to leave at the interval.....).

[bluestateprommer]

Well, no surprise at all to see the news that the Concertgebouw Orchestra has chosen Klaus Mäkelä as its next chief conductor, in 5 years' (!) time:

https://www.concertgebouworkest.nl/en/stories/klaus-makela-the-eighth-chief-conductor

Given the number of guest-conducting appearances that KM made with the RCO/KCO in such a short period of time, from the fall of 2020 to now, which included tour gigs, the writing on the wall was pretty clear, in a good way. I've started to listen to KM's new Sibelius set with the Oslo Philharmonic, and I have mixed feelings about it. But KM is but in his mid-20's, after all. (It's probably subconscious resentment on my part that I didn't really do much with my life by my own mid-20's, and haven't done much since.)

To state the very obvious, this appointment clearly has implications for the Oslo Philharmonic and the Orchestre de Paris, KM's current two orchestras, beyond 2027. Maybe they'll assume the worst and that he'll move on from each in 2027. So each needs to start scoping the field for respective successors (which any orchestra needs to do anyway, as a matter of course).

[richardfinegold]

I heard his Sibelius cycle on Qobuz. He seems talented but a tad wet behind the ears

[Petrushka]

I must admit to some surprise at this appointment as 26 is an incredibly young age to take on the chief conductorship of one of the world's top orchestras,

Five years as 'Artistic Partner'? What's that all about? Is it for KM to disentangle himself from his other commitments in Paris and Oslo or is it a long probationary period for him to learn more repertoire? Either way, it's not without risks on both sides. Haitink was 30 when he was appointed to the Concertgebouw job in 1959, becoming chief conductor (with Eugen Jochum) in 1961 and he did say that there were times when he found it very difficult being so young. I wonder if the RCO might have thought of appointing a more experienced conductor (Ivan Fischer, say) in a similar joint arrangement to Haitink/Jochum. After the Gatti fiasco they won't want to be making another mistake.

I've not heard anything from KM so can't comment on his artistic merits but 26, though. I wonder what Haitink would have said!

[Alison]

Agree Pet, the joint leadership idea would surely have been ideal.

I have the KM Sibelius box but haven’t listened yet.

[bluestateprommer]

Five years as 'Artistic Partner'? What's that all about? Is it for KM to disentangle himself from his other commitments in Paris and Oslo or is it a long probationary period for him to learn more repertoire?

Probably all of the above. This article in today's NYT obliquely address the concerns:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/arts/music/klaus-makela-conductor.html

"That happened during the lockdown days of early 2021 in Paris. Mäkelä was preparing a concert there, keeping to himself because of a curfew. With only a small window of opportunity, a delegation from the Concertgebouw Orchestra went to Paris and had dinner with him. Afterward, back at the hotel, they emptied their minibars and knocked on Mäkelä’s door. Inside, they asked whether he would take the job.

Thus began, Mäkelä said, a nearly year-and-a-half-long negotiation over how to keep his two orchestras while taking on Amsterdam."

Dominic Seldis asked KM point-blank in this video posted after the announcement of KM's appointment to the KCO, where KM took a while to get his half-answer that he would cut back on other guest-conducting to focus on Oslo, Paris & Amsterdam for the next few years:

https://www.concertgebouworkest.nl/en/stories/klaus-makela-the-eighth-chief-conductor

Interestingly, though, at the end of the NYT article, KM still hasn't tipped his hand, understandably enough, as to what happens with his Oslo and Paris commitments after 2027:

"Mäkelä doesn’t yet know what he will do when the Paris and Oslo contracts expire in 2027. 'I love them both to death,' he said, 'and they’ve been teaching me so much.' But three music directorships won’t be possible, and with effectively all of them filling out his calendar now, he can feel the jet-setting, rising-star lifestyle of his early 20s begin to calm down.'"

My guess, FWIW (i.e. not much), is that he'll give up Oslo (perhaps to take the title of principal guest conductor), but potentially keep Paris. This speculation is based on this item from Radio 4 Netherlands, announcing a collaboration between the KCO and the Orchestre de Paris:

https://www.nporadio4.nl/klassiek/podium/d28673f3-2ea8-4e8e-8c61-690d450ddb5f/muzikale-samenwerking-amsterdam-parijs

"THE PHILHARMONIE DE PARIS AND THE ORCHESTRE DE PARIS, THE ROYAL CONCERTGEBOUW ORCHESTRA AND THE ROYAL CONCERTGEBOUW ANNOUNCE A UNIQUE ARTISTIC AND CULTURAL PARTNERSHIP

These great artistic institutions will work together in different areas over the course of the coming years. This collaboration reinforces and develops the collaborations between the two orchestras. At its heart is the artistic vision of the Finnish conductor Klaus Mäkelä, Music Director of the Orchestre de Paris and Artistic Partner and Chief Conductor Designate of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra.

Several projects are imagined over the coming season: exchanges between the two orchestras, co-commissioning of new works, educational projects and a reflection on environmental issues."

While traveling between Oslo and Amsterdam isn't the most onerous travel (compared to crossing the Atlantic, certainly), it does involve air travel, compared to a train ride between Amsterdam and Paris. Hence the announcement playing up that aspect, on the environmental side. Plus, with respect to Oslo, if KM leaves after 7 years in total (including pandemic year), then this lines up with the recent tenures of Jukka-Pekka Saraste and Vasily Petrenko, each 7 years.

"Either way, it's not without risks on both sides. Haitink was 30 when he was appointed to the Concertgebouw job in 1959, becoming chief conductor (with Eugen Jochum) in 1961 and he did say that there were times when he found it very difficult being so young. I wonder if the RCO might have thought of appointing a more experienced conductor (Ivan Fischer, say) in a similar joint arrangement to Haitink/Jochum.

In a way, and perhaps more by osmosis rather than design, this is exactly what the KCO have done. The orchestra granted the title of 'honorair gastdirigent' to Fischer back in 2020, well before the appointment of KM. While on one level, the title of 'honorair gastdirigent' may just sound like a jumped-up title, the previous holder of that title was Nikolaus Harnoncourt. So one can see that title as one not to be given out lightly. So the lions' share of conducting responsibilities with the KCO look divided up between IF and KM, albeit with the media spotlight much more on KM.

I wonder what Haitink would have said!

If Haitink was following the KM videos from the Concertgebouw Orchestra during quarantime, then he would have had the chance to form opinions. Haitink was never happy with the choice of Chailly to succeed him back in the 1980's, to be sure. But AFAICT, he kept quiet publicly about KM, unless perhaps he nodded in approval (or shook his head in disapproval. We'll never know, and maybe his widow is the only person who knows). From the NYT article and other accounts that I've read, KM has pretty much wowed every orchestra that he's met as a guest conductor. I recall reading a comment in passing in a VAN Magazine on-line article that after one concert with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, the musicians were ready to offer KM the job there. (Granted, at least one CSO musician raved about Thielemann's Bruckner 8 recently, so fleeting opinions can develop quickly, month to month.) The comments mentioned in the NYT article about his recent appearances in Cleveland are in line with that thinking.