Why do we hear so little music by women composers?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Was it not the case that Mahler married Alma on condition that she gave up composing?

Not so much "on condition", but took it as read that she would as a matter of course stop composing once she married and devote herself to her "natural" function of wife (supporting him) and mother. Alma herself - like thousands of other women composers, painters and poets before and after her - bought this view; and - like those other creative women - did so with very heavy heart.

I'm not sure that Mendelssoh was so negative towards his sister.

But, again, he (and Fanny herself) didn't give serious thought to the notion that she might continue composing after her marriage. The really pernicious aspect of all this is that they weren't being "negative": they were merely fulfilling roles that Nature - not society - had prescribed for them. Woman's creativity was child-bearing - it was "obvious" and "Natural".

[Beef Oven!]

So it isn't until the 20th Century that women begin to emerge from this stifling psychological environment - and it is Music from the 20th Century onwards that is least "enjoyed" (or programmed) by the majority of enthusiasts for the Musics of the Western Classical traditions.

That's probably true, but it does not explain why women, especially composers and conductors, are largely ignored by the common or garden classical music fan. This forum is a good example of that phenomenon. Off the top of my head, there's about 3/4 of us who regularly post about female musicians. Without naming names, those of us that do post about female musicians, are not your orthodox classical music fan.

Of course the fundamental answer to the OP question is that society was, and is, structurally and manifestly sexist.

[Dave2002]

But, again, he (and Fanny herself) didn't give serious thought to the notion that she might continue composing after her marriage. The really pernicious aspect of all this is that they weren't being "negative": they were merely fulfilling roles that Nature - not society - had prescribed for them. Woman's creativity was child-bearing - it was "obvious" and "Natural".

Since women are, allegedly, able to multi-task very effectively, and since perhaps pre-20th cenury women also had this ability, surely they should have been able to compose and also bear and bring up children. There would have been time costraints, but I think there was more than that, and indeed the attitudes to women persisted even into the 20th century, as in some families girls' education is still thought of as less important - "she can get married and have chilldren" (or vice-versa) and presumably "be supported by" her husband. In wealthier families boys may go to private ("public") schools, but girls may go to state schools, or schools which are cheaper. Not all families have this attitude, but even now (21st C) some may still behave as if they do.

[Pabmusic]

... Without naming names, those of us that do post about female musicians, are not your orthodox classical music fan.

Of course the fundamental answer to the OP question is that society was, and is, structurally and manifestly sexist.

The problem I have always had about this sort of argument is that I don't ever feel I'm talking about a musician because they're male of female, but because they're a particular individual.

Here's a thought, for which I can provide no evidence. It is likely that many composers had Asperger's Syndrome (at least authorities such as Tony Attwood believe so) - Mozart is an obvious candidate, although it's impossible to confirm now, of course. If there is any truth in that then Asperger's is known to have a 4:1 ratio of male:female (how often do you see female trainspotters?). Add to that the persistent sexism of (say) the Christian religion and Western societies and you have a recipe that will deliver more male composers.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That's probably true, but it does not explain why women, especially composers and conductors, are largely ignored by the common or garden classical music fan. This forum is a good example of that phenomenon. Off the top of my head, there's about 3/4 of us who regularly post about female musicians. Without naming names, those of us that do post about female musicians, are not your orthodox classical music fan.

- Exactly. As Barbi pointed out, there are many women who have written superb works (I would add Rebecca Saunders, Kaija Saariaho, Katherine Norman, Chaya Czernowin, Liza Lim. Joanna Baille, Olga Neuwirth, Tansy Davies, Iris ter Schiphorst, Hilda Parades, Natasha Barrett .... ) but they're rarely performed and even more rarely broadcast. And, because many of them write in an idiom that the "common or garden classical Music fan" doesn't much care for (if anything, is actively hostile to) , it is left to us "unorthodoxists" to promote their cause.

Of course the fundamental answer to the OP question is that society was, and is, structurally and manifestly sexist.

Yes - as simple as that.

[Quarky]

...asks Anna Beer on Radio 4 this evening.

I loved the anecdote she started with - someone requested Fanfare for the Uncommon Woman on Classic FM.

But having announced it, what they played was Fanfare for the Common Man.

The question is why don't we hear music by women composers, not that it is not composed. There is a great amount of music composed by women composers currently active, Sally Beamish (my favourite), Judith Weir, Rebecca Saunders, etc - and then Jazz, pop, as ff pointed out

But 20th /21st compositions are not box office, and the Radio Stations tend to steer clear of anything not directly connected to 19th Century Romantic and Classic eras.

So I think the blame lies with the majority of the listening public, and the cages around their heads.

[Flosshilde]

For an example of the "average classical listener"'s attitude towards women, I saw this series of posts the other day.

I've seen not dissimilar 'discussions' on this forum (& its BBC predecesor)

But I'm not sure that those attitudes would infect the programming of music composed by women (but perhaps I'm wrong, in which case )

[Beef Oven!]

- Exactly. As Alpie pointed out, there are many women who have written superb works (I would add Rebecca Saunders, Kaija Saariaho, Katherine Norman, Chaya Czernowin, Liza Lim. Joanna Baille, Olga Neuwirth, Tansy Davies, Iris ter Schiphorst, Hilda Parades, Natasha Barrett .... ) but they're rarely performed and even more rarely broadcast. And, because many of them write in an idiom that the "common or garden classical Music fan" doesn't much care for (if anything, is actively hostile to) , it is left to us "unorthodoxists" to promote their cause.


Yes - as simple as that.

[french frank]

So I think the blame lies with the majority of the listening public, and the cages around their heads.

I think the word 'problem' rather than 'blame' would be better. It's up to those who can see the 'problem' and who have the influence/power/authority/opportunity to solve it - but don't - that the 'blame' lies.

[Beef Oven!]

The problem I have always had about this sort of argument is that I don't ever feel I'm talking about a musician because they're male of female, but because they're a particular individual.

I'm not sure why you think that what I have said necessitates thinking about whether a musician is male or female. On the contrary, I believe I don't ever feel that I'm considering gender. I don't even think much of them as a particular individual, not at first anyway.

My response is always to the music, then it's context. Visceral rather than intellectual.

[Pabmusic]

...My response is always to the music, then it's context. Visceral rather than intellectual.

[kea]

That's probably true, but it does not explain why women, especially composers and conductors, are largely ignored by the common or garden classical music fan. This forum is a good example of that phenomenon.

Composers: the common or garden classical music fan doesn't think much of any of those who weren't canonised by masculine power structures at some point before the 20th century, and listens to music mostly as a sequence of pretty sounds rather than something to be engaged with intellectually.

Conductors: well there are hundreds of female conductors, but how many of them are directors of major orchestras, or granted any sort of recognition by the establishment? Very few. (There are also almost no black symphony conductors in the West, or any of Arabic descent... it's not just a gender problem)

Though in that case not towards the "average woman musician".

I would say that is the average woman musician. Though perhaps more blatant than most. It's the Pireses and Uchidas of the world who don't doll themselves up/allow it to be done to them, who are the exceptions, these days.

I've seen not dissimilar 'discussions' on this forum (& its BBC predecesor)

But I'm not sure that those attitudes would infect the programming of music composed by women (but perhaps I'm wrong, in which case )

They already implicitly do, through the basic underlying assumption that women's primary goal should be to be attractive, and that competence in other fields is something only attained by those who cannot (and that competence, in turn, will usually not be considered as good as a man's). And underlying this is the as-yet-undead premise that men are the "normal" kind of human that can do anything, and women are a special breed of human created for the sole purpose of having children. Adam's rib and all that. Until we get rid of Christianity, Judaism and Islam I don't think that premise is going anywhere.

[Quarky]

Though in that case not towards the "average woman musician". How far does the "average classic listener" (male or female) hold with the "If you've got it, flaunt it" aphorism when it comes to classical musicians? I would say it's not appreciated, as being just another way of that the performer tries to upstage the composer/music/performance - a parallel to what some people feel about Nigel Kennedy. Or Cameron Carpenter.

I've never met a woman yet who doesn't like dolling-up.

[french frank]

I've never met a woman yet who doesn't like dolling-up.

Have we met?

[jean]

The question is why don't we hear music by women composers, not that it is not composed...

...So I think the blame lies with the majority of the listening public, and the cages around their heads.

But the point of the anecdote that began the talk was that a member of the listening public DID express a desire for a piece by a woman composer - it was the people at Classic FM who did not even notice, and played the much-better-known, similarly-titled work by a male composer instead.

(Wouldn't have happened at Radio 3...)