Where is everyone?

[french frank]

I have got the feeling that many of our contributors love their music, but are not really interested in it further than that it makes lovely sounds and hence sticking to "the best performance of..."-type of postings. One might even conclude that the music is heard a lot of times, but really listened to....?
The question "why?" seems hardly to be put.

I think that the majority here may not be 'musically literate'. For me to sit down and write a few notes on the merits of Beethoven's Op. 131 would seem presumptuous.

[Hitch]

I think that the majority here may not be 'musically literate'. For me to sit down and write a few notes on the merits of Beethoven's Op. 131 would seem presumptuous.

On the contrary, it would be enlightening. Nobody here is forced to read each and every post. One can always skip a Beethoven bore.

[french frank]

On the contrary, it would be enlightening. Nobody here is forced to read each and every post. One can always skip a Beethoven bore.

Yes, but my 'few notes' might be limited to saying, "I like those first three notes .." Enlightening - I think not.

[teamsaint]

I think that the majority here may not be 'musically literate'. For me to sit down and write a few notes on the merits of Beethoven's Op. 131 would seem presumptuous.

Why? does it matter?

Our man in the brass section, encouraged me a while ago to post my views on music, (so its YOUR fault Horny !) regardless of how competent I felt, and on a board where there is so much expertise.

And I find I learn a lot,and listen better when I am trying to formulate my thoughts for an audience, even if that audience is imaginary and more knowledgeable than me, and even if the real audience could even me on ignore !!

Listening well, to the Roehre level of discipline, isn't always easy to do, so I tend to see it as an aspiration, rather than a rule.

[Roehre]

I think that the majority here may not be 'musically literate'. For me to sit down and write a few notes on the merits of Beethoven's Op. 131 would seem presumptuous.

I assume you are capable of hearing that some melodies in op.131 recur in 130 and 133, and listening to 130 or 133 you recognize (I hope!) that fragments are similar or even identical to 131.
THAT triggers curiosity (well, it did for me at least, in 1974 or so).
As soon as you realise that, you are caught in a web of interesting connections etc, worth further listening, and more intensive listening on top of that.

[johnb]

To french frank: I assume you are capable of hearing that some melodies in op.131 recur in 130 and 133, and listening to 130 or 133 you recognize (I hope!) that fragments are similar or even identical to 131.

This is the sort of post that makes me feel even more ignorant than I did previously. It's now obvious that I am incapable of truly listening to Beethoven (and probably classical music in general) and should be banished to CFM, or have my listening restricted to the mornings on R3.

[french frank]

I assume you are capable of hearing that some melodies in op.131 recur in 130 and 133, and listening to 130 or 133 you recognize (I hope!) that fragments are similar or even identical to 131.

One of my problems is that I seem to have an appalling 'musical memory'. I switched on R3 this morning (for Zucchini's benefit - in the gym) and immediately 'recognised' a Mozart piano piece. What it was I hadn't a clue - just that I knew it very well. A sonata? (It was the Rondo K485). No way I would have identified it. Would I be able to carry the memory of one 'petite phrase' from Op 131 to Op 130? I might cheat by poring over the miniature scores ...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But you recognised the piano piece, even if you couldn't identify it. Similarly, if the bits you recognised had reappeared in another work, wouldn't you have recognised (if not identified) that the same phrase/melody was being re-used?

[Roehre]

....It's now obvious that I am incapable of truly listening to Beethoven (and probably classical music in general) and should be banished to CFM, or have my listening restricted to the mornings on R3.

Why? enjoying the music is the most important thing.
However, it increases enjoyment if you start recognizing things (and -with French Frank- that is not the same as immediately knowing the music's title ), and we all started from scratch, didn't we?

[Hitch]

Yes, but my 'few notes' might be limited to saying, "I like those first three notes .." Enlightening - I think not.

What does it matter if a post is simply an expression of approval? Membership of this forum is not exclusive to those who write paragraphs of musical analysis. We all have to start somewhere. One of the strengths of this place is that it welcomes epics and interjections. However, it is often a privilege to read the insights of our more musically erudite members.

As said above in this thread, the recent slowing in the frequency of posts might have its origins in the traditional summer lull; a few damp, windswept days should have members scurrying back to their laptops. Paradoxically, Radio 3 is busier than usual because of the Proms but seems to provide fewer items of interest. (Promsumption, n. A withering of musical appetite.) Again, the return of the normal schedule will enliven the boards here.

Would it be a good idea to create separate sections for individual composers? That might generate some stimulating discussions. Or would it place too much strain on the servers and our estimable administrators?

[aeolium]

I think that the majority here may not be 'musically literate'.

I certainly count myself in that 'majority', in that I would not be capable of performing the kind of musical analysis of a work that clearly some, like Roehre and ferney, are able to do. Nor do I have the apparently encyclopedic musical knowledge of some of these posters like Roehre and Suffolkcoastal. I am able to detect influences in plenty of works, but to be honest I am not greatly interested in musical influences on a work, more in what a work itself is communicating. For me that sort of study is a kind of intellectual problem-solving, like crossword puzzles. If you can imagine back to that first fresh exposure to a work, even a "warhorse", you probably did not know the history of its composition and the various musical influences upon it, but was it the less powerful for that? It's interesting that Hans Keller, hardly a musical illiterate, came to discard verbal analysis of musical works as useless and developed his own distinctive "wordless analysis" using musical examples.

It is part of the problem of music that meaningful discussion of it is hard since people can respond so differently. It doesn't help if people feel intimidated not to contribute because their knowledge or technical understanding of music is less than that of others here - anyone should be able to post at whatever level they feel comfortable with.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... anyone should be able to post at whatever level they feel comfortable with.

Incidentally, your mentioning Hans Keller's non-verbal analysis (of which I've forgotten the name - "Functional Analysis"? Seems un-Kellerian: how can analysis be dysfunctional?) is exactly the sort of thing I believe Roehre is talking. It's what Wagner's leitmotifs thrive on - and he* would have claimed that it has its origins in those late Beethoven Quartets.

* = Wagner, not Roehre.

[french frank]

I propose at some point to give my insights into Op 131. Maybe this evening. I have to go to the Coop first.

Incidentally, I don't think there's a vast fall-off in posting. There were 333 posts yesterday (usually it's about 200-250 a day).

[Dave2002]

This is the sort of post that makes me feel even more ignorant than I did previously. It's now obvious that I am incapable of truly listening to Beethoven (and probably classical music in general) and should be banished to CFM, or have my listening restricted to the mornings on R3.

Oh dear, maybe he's got me too. Perhaps a simpler "puzzle" would be to note that in the scherzo of Beethoven's 7th symphony, instead of a 4 bar phrase being repeated 3 times, it's actually a 5 bar, then a 4 bar, then a 3 bar - aha - a joke - got it - boom boom!

Not sure which of the movements of that symphony Beecham made the "yaks" comment about. Wiki has it as the 3rd, but for me it could have been the 4th.

[Don Petter]

I assume you are capable of hearing that some melodies in op.131 recur in 130 and 133, and listening to 130 or 133 you recognize (I hope!) that fragments are similar or even identical to 131.
THAT triggers curiosity (well, it did for me at least, in 1974 or so).
As soon as you realise that, you are caught in a web of interesting connections etc, worth further listening, and more intensive listening on top of that.

But if we are not capable of that, without reading Tovey to find out, should we not still contribute by the occasional (NB - R3 presenters) praise of a performance, either favourite or recently discovered?

If one member can point other members to musical delights which they might like and otherwise have missed, I think that is a perfectly valid use of this meeting place.