Wobbly Women Spoil My Music

[gamba]

Looked forward to sessions featuring Dowland & Strauss ( Four Last Songs ).
Waste of time, especially the Dowland - he can do without tremolo , vibrato, call it what you will.
Same again with the Strauss, although not unexpected. Dug out my CD of Elizabeth Schwarzkopf to
' take the taste away.' - pure bliss.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... and Music has occasionally spoiled my enjoyment of Wobbly Women.

But, I agree - Tarzan-like vibrato (men and women, and instrumentalists, too) ruins a lot of performances for me, too.

[Richard Tarleton]

Looked forward to sessions featuring Dowland & Strauss ( Four Last Songs ).
Waste of time, especially the Dowland - he can do without tremolo , vibrato, call it what you will.
Same again with the Strauss, although not unexpected. Dug out my CD of Elizabeth Schwarzkopf to
' take the taste away.' - pure bliss.

Clearly I must have another listen to Saturday's Dowland, gamba - to my ears Elin Manahan Thomas has a light, pleasing, unaffected and above all vibrato-free voice that is perfect for Dowland, and I thoroughly enjoyed the recital with Fretwork. Not quite as pure a vocal line as the sainted Emma Kirkby, perhaps, though I rather think the latter is sui generis. I still have Elin Manahan Thomas's stratospheric recording with the Sixteen of the Allegri Miserere on my satellite box hard disc, and have heard her live in Cardiff.

The Strauss was indeed a disappointment, Ms Dam Jensen has developed a bit of a vibrato since I last heard her singing Strauss (live in Cardiff, nearly 20 years ago), and indeed since she sang "Let the Bright Seraphim" in the final of the Cardiff Singer of the World (with Joan Sutherland on the jury). After watching the Prom again on TV I wondered if the hall was too big for her voice (or her voice too small for it), and whether she was trying too hard. Not a BBC Legends recording, clearly, unlike the Elisabeth Söderstrom recording which is my palate-cleanser (and I heard her sing 4LS live, too!) !

[gamba]

Richard,

In fairness I found the Dowland to be on the edge & will attempt to hear again. All the same, what I heard I found detracted from the mood of the age. Most unlikely from such an experienced & highly regarded group.

There is a case for a good discussion on ' Why & Where ' for Vibrato ? '

As a cellist ( of sorts ) I have to live with it !

Having a bass viol, with frets, no such problem.

[Nick Armstrong]

Looked forward to sessions featuring Dowland & Strauss ( Four Last Songs ).
Waste of time, especially the Dowland - he can do without tremolo , vibrato, call it what you will.
Same again with the Strauss

O gamba don't get me started (he began...) I've banged on in various places about how the majority of singers these days seem to me to have intolerable vibrato, and it appears to be not only tolerated but praised e.g. on the radio.

Sadly a lot of the offenders seem to be British, but that may just be because the main access I have is through Radio 3 and they (understandably but annoyingly) seem to plug and gush about British performers pretty well indiscriminately. It may be invidious to name names but all I can do is recount my own experience - based on trying to endure their performances, two 'darlings' of the BBC, Ailish Tynan and Sally Matthews I find have voices which are simply unlistenable-to (indeed, actively annoying and unpleasant).

To be fair, there was just the breath of accurate criticism of the latter on Saturday, when Andrew McGregor, in relation to Ms Matthews's performance on the Gergiev/LSO Brahms Requiem disc, said this: she "has more of the other-worldly serenity required but sacrifices enunciation for legato line and her vibrato dominates the sound" A very gentlemanly, politic way of saying that you could drive a truck through the wobble without touching the sides, and you can't understand a word she's singing...

It's not just women, of course - a TTN repeat of a 2012 Prom I attended reminded me the other day how the vibrato that afflicts Jonathan Lemalu's voice these days is embarrassingly wide, it's impossible to detect what note he's supposed to be singing.

It's all been making me avoid concerts and other performances where singing features (other than purely choral), for some years now

[gamba]

Thank you, Caliban,

I was beginning to think I was ( almost ) on my own in this matter.

I value comments from yourself & others on this subject. I often wonder what conductors have to say. they could have their own performance ruined by what they too must regard as excessive. Do they have the right to involve themselves in such matters ? someone here must know. I would be glad to hear more.

[doversoul1]

- to my ears Elin Manahan Thomas has a light, pleasing, unaffected and above all vibrato-free voice that is perfect for Dowland,

That was what I always thought about Elin Manahan Thomas, so I was surprised and rather disappointed that she sounded somewhat over-dramatic in this concert. This is strictly 'to me', by the way

[Ferretfancy]

I enjoyed Dam Jensen's performance, in spite of the wobble, I've heard more vibrato with others. However from a straight line distance of only about thirty feet, I hardly caught a single word. I wonder, are singers trained to produce a beautiful sound at the expense of diction, and does the application of vibrato make things worse?

Schwarzkop, rather late in her career, was criticised by some for 'crooning' in her recording with Szell, maybe so, but when listening you are always aware of the text.
Of course, the microphone probably helped, but as an experienced artist working with a great conductor, she knew what was needed.
I didn't listen to last week's broadcast, so I don't know how the words came over on air, but they were lost in the hall.

[Roslynmuse]

I don't think singers 'apply' vibrato, at least not in the way instrumentalists do; it is part of the whole package - a side-effect, if you like - of developing a 'supported' (and most voice teachers are hard put to explain exactly what that means) voice that works (or doesn't) evenly across the whole range. Of course, a really skilled singer will be able to fine their vibrato to nothing, but singers tell me that it is extremely tiring to do this for any length of time (although some manage it). Certainly, the hoops that most aspiring young singers have to go through, from Conservatoire training onwards, all rely on the singer having a voice which will project, and, like it or not, that means vibrato. The 'choirgirl' sound, 'straight' or 'white' tone, will not get any singer work other than with specialist vocal ensembles or choirs - it would be exceptionally difficult for them to break into the operatic world or even that of the recital singer. I've had some interesting discussions with early music specialists about this, and, on the other side of the Great Divide, many vocal tutors.

Text is a whole other matter, and most singers are guilty of paying far too little attention to the text, their diction, and the sheer effort involved in putting it across in a space bigger than a studio.

I suspect that conductors who spend a lot of time in the opera house will tolerate a wider range of vocal imperfection than some of us - so long as there is individuality, insight, character to make up for it.

[Richard Tarleton]

That was what I always thought about Elin Manahan Thomas, so I was surprised and rather disappointed that she sounded somewhat over-dramatic in this concert. This is strictly 'to me', by the way

Thanks dover. I just had another listen to Flow my teares and for comparison span Emma Kirkby on the Consort of Musicke version of all those years ago. Yes EMT does pack more emotion (emoting?) into it but not (to my ears anyway) objectionably so, it doesn't amount to vibrato IMV, most of her vocal line is as pure as ever, or almost so. But I then got sidetracked, for of course Flow my teares is originally a song for two voices, with lute accompaniment only....

On the Rooley and co. version of this song Emma Kirkby is accompanied by David Thomas singing a bass counterpoint, and by the lute only, no viols. I lifted Diana Poulton, the last word on Dowland, down from the shelf. Flow my teares is from The Second Booke of Songs , and is no 2 in the first group therein, which are "Songs to two voices". She discusses the song at length. The song is based on a lute solo, which was composed first (the instrumental pavan "Lachrimae"), the words being written to fit the music, rather than the music being composed to accompany an existing poem.

So Fretwork were performing arrangements of the lute songs (whose?) for consort, and one voice. I had been expecting....lute songs, which is what they are, alongside the Lachrimae for viol consort.

My disappointment with the concert was that we heard so little of the lute - they might have let Liz Kenny loose with the lute version of the King of Denmark's Galliard, instead of the shorter and much less interesting consort version.

Where's Catherine Bott when we need her? - Catherine, if by any remote chance you're still looking in.....

PS here's the link to the Fretwork concert in case anyone else wants to get stuck in

[Hornspieler]

Looked forward to sessions featuring Dowland & Strauss ( Four Last Songs ).
Waste of time, especially the Dowland - he can do without tremolo , vibrato, call it what you will.
Same again with the Strauss, although not unexpected. Dug out my CD of Elizabeth Schwarzkopf to
' take the taste away.' - pure bliss.

For me, having heard Schwarzkopf sing the 4LS, no other singer will do.

Title of this forum reminds me of Humphrey Lyttleton's joke about Women's Lib.

"Now that the ladies have been urged to throw away their bras, let's have a good old standard from the thirties -

The Jersey Bounce"

HS

[Stanfordian]

I enjoyed Dam Jensen's performance, in spite of the wobble, I've heard more vibrato with others. However from a straight line distance of only about thirty feet, I hardly caught a single word. I wonder, are singers trained to produce a beautiful sound at the expense of diction, and does the application of vibrato make things worse?

Schwarzkop, rather late in her career, was criticised by some for 'crooning' in her recording with Szell, maybe so, but when listening you are always aware of the text.
Of course, the microphone probably helped, but as an experienced artist working with a great conductor, she knew what was needed.
I didn't listen to last week's broadcast, so I don't know how the words came over on air, but they were lost in the hall.

Hiya Ferratfancy,

The voices of most sopranos and mezzos are simply not strong are not strong enough voices to sing Strauss. I attended a Bridgewater Hall BBC Phil concert earlier this year with Inger Dam-Jensen singing Six songs after poems by Clemens Brentano and I could barely hear her. Of course it's different hearing the radio broadcast when the voice can be placed further forward in the sound balance. This season I have heard nine or ten orchestral concerts that comprised Strauss orchestral songs and the only one that I had no problem in hearing the singers was in Dresden on Strauss's 150th birthday with Anja Harteros, Camilla Nylund & Christine Goerke who could all be described as dramatic sopranos singing various Strauss scenes and arias with the Staatskapelle Dresden under Christian Thielemann at the Semperoper. These three women were rare in being able to really able to project their extremely large voices over Strauss's oplulent orchestral writing to all corners of the opera house.

[Stanfordian]

That was what I always thought about Elin Manahan Thomas, so I was surprised and rather disappointed that she sounded somewhat over-dramatic in this concert. This is strictly 'to me', by the way

Hiya doversoul,

I heard Elin Manahan Thomas sing with The Sixteen at Kendal parish Church a few years ago. Then her purity of tone was astonishing.

[Roslynmuse]

The voices of most sopranos and mezzos are simply not strong are not strong enough voices to sing Strauss. I attended a Bridgewater Hall BBC Phil concert earlier this year with Inger Dam-Jensen singing Six songs after poems by Clemens Brentano and I could barely hear her.

I was at that concert too, sitting stalls row F, and whilst I could hear something of her voice, it certainly didn't carry as, say, a solo violin (Pauline Strauss?) or a flute, oboe or clarinet would. The conductor, Gunther Herbig, would, I am quite sure, have brought the orchestra down to the safest level possible.

There was only one concert in the Manchester Strauss-Fest with an audible soprano (the men generally had a bit less difficulty) but I can't remember her name - it should have been Susan Gritton but she was indisposed. Ana someone? Being able to hear her was a mixed blessing though...

[Sir Velo]

I don't think singers 'apply' vibrato, at least not in the way instrumentalists do; it is part of the whole package - a side-effect, if you like - of developing a 'supported' (and most voice teachers are hard put to explain exactly what that means) voice that works (or doesn't) evenly across the whole range. Of course, a really skilled singer will be able to fine their vibrato to nothing, but singers tell me that it is extremely tiring to do this for any length of time (although some manage it). Certainly, the hoops that most aspiring young singers have to go through, from Conservatoire training onwards, all rely on the singer having a voice which will project, and, like it or not, that means vibrato. The 'choirgirl' sound, 'straight' or 'white' tone, will not get any singer work other than with specialist vocal ensembles or choirs - it would be exceptionally difficult for them to break into the operatic world or even that of the recital singer.

A most illuminating post which makes a great deal of sense! Somehow, and at the risk of sounding sexist, the soprano wobble is more distressing than that of any other voice type - it having the ability to split the skull and set the teeth on edge. Indeed. so injurious to health do I find it, we have a household rule never to allow warbling before 10am anywhere in the house. One of the things which irks me about Radio 3's choice of playlists is the complete inability to select music which suits the hour. Vibrato at 6:30 am is not my idea of a pleasant way to ease into the day (give me a Scarlatti sonata!).