Sic!

[Pabmusic]

Petroc Trelawny has a reasonable piece in Radio 3 online - "Why do we think Elgar's music sounds English?":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zxhfyrd

Quite good of its type until you read this:

in 1899, when he married Caroline Alice Edwards, the daughter of a senior British Army office, her family disinherited her.

Forget the typo (perhaps Elgar's father-in-law was actually a bureaucrat) but the rather prim Caroline Alice Roberts would surely have been shocked to find out Elgar was a bigamist, for she had married him in 1889. Perhaps, too, EE had a fetish for 'Caroline Alice', since both Miss Roberts and Miss Edwards shared the names.

Petroc makes a questionable claim here, too:

[Elgar] wrote that Nimrod, from the Enigma Variations, expressed 'my sense of the loneliness of the artist … and to me, it still embodies that sense’

EE did say something of the sort, but about the theme, not Nimrod.

Computers are so easy to use that we don't need sub-editors any more.

[MrGongGong]

Elgar’s sound is not intrinsically English: it stems from Schumann, Brahms and Wagner. Yet we feel in tune with Elgar temperamentally; consequently we hear this music, knowing it’s by an Englishman, as ‘English’. It’s as though Elgar has worked an almost magical trick.

"Magic trick" ?

Hardly mate

And who is this "we" of which you speak ?
Get rid of all the guff that surrounds it and there's some wonderful music indeed.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Does RVW's Music "sound English"? Does Purcell's, or Dunstable's, or Birtwistle's?

Does Elgar's Music sound like RVW's? Or Dunstable's like Purcell's?

Does it queue up nicely and grumble about the weather?

[Pabmusic]

My own feeling is that we say EE's music "sounds" English or British only because we know it is. It's a post-hoc rationalisation.

Actually, Elgar's music sounds almost always like Elgar. It's mainly (I'd say) an amalgam of Victorians such as Maunder and S. S. Wesley, Delibes, Bizet, Saint-Saens, Massenet, Dvorak and Schumann, with Wagner and Brahms later grafted on. It is, however, very distinctive. That's Elgar's 'magic".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My own feeling is that we say EE's music "sounds" English or British only because we know it is. It's a post-hoc rationalisation.

Actually, Elgar's music sounds almost always like Elgar. It's mainly (I'd say) an amalgam of Victorians such as Maunder and S. S. Wesley, Delibes, Bizet, Saint-Saens, Massenet, Dvorak and Schumann, with Wagner and Brahms later grafted on. It is, however, very distinctive. That's Elgar's 'magic".

[EdgeleyRob]

Elgar's music sounds like it's been plucked out of the air around him.

[MrGongGong]

Elgar's music sounds like it's been plucked out of the air around him.

NO it doesn't
It's only because he said that that people think it to be true

[cloughie]

Does RVW's Music "sound English"? Does Purcell's, or Dunstable's, or Birtwistle's?

Does Elgar's Music sound like RVW's? Or Dunstable's like Purcell's?

Does it queue up nicely and grumble about the weather?

Does it wear a knotted handkerchief on its head on the beach?

No, but there must be something about it that makes it ignored by so many international conductors!

Slightly off topic but not really - many of Ray Davies' songs do sound English but that's really a giveaway because of the lyrics!

[EdgeleyRob]

NO it doesn't
It's only because he said that that people think it to be true

Of course it doesn't GG,I was trying and failing to be clever
I wish I could put this into words but there IS something in ALL English music that sets it apart,to my ears.
It's as if it's in the air,in the earth,in the countryside and the city...... everywhere.
I can sense it from Purcell to Simpson,even in some prog rock.
Just can't put my finger on what it is,whatever it is it just blows me away and without it ...well it's unthinkable.
Or perhaps I'm just a bit odd,well I know I am, but you know what I mean,or perhaps not.

[Stanfordian]

My own feeling is that we say EE's music "sounds" English or British only because we know it is. It's a post-hoc rationalisation.

Actually, Elgar's music sounds almost always like Elgar. It's mainly (I'd say) an amalgam of Victorians such as Maunder and S. S. Wesley, Delibes, Bizet, Saint-Saens, Massenet, Dvorak and Schumann, with Wagner and Brahms later grafted on. It is, however, very distinctive. That's Elgar's 'magic".

Hiya Pabmusic,

Elgar's music as been used as processional music for many state occasions and used on tv and radio for royal family, state ceremony or some English event that it has become firmly associated to this sense of Englishness. In the same way Parry's I was Glad and Jerusalem is used to accompany English events.

[BBMmk2]

ER, it all depnds in what you mean, by your post. it can mean several different ways.

I mean the way he was inspired was cycling around the countryside(before he purchased his first car). So in that respect, he almost literally did.

[Pabmusic]

Hiya Pabmusic,

Elgar's music as been used as processional music for many state occasions and used on tv and radio for royal family, state ceremony or some English event that it has become firmly associated to this sense of Englishness. In the same way Parry's I was Glad and Jerusalem is used to accompany English events.

Hello, Stanfordian. Of course that's right and it has to go into the melting pot as well.

[Honoured Guest]

I'd say that Elgar's music sounds quintessentially English-of-its-time. Obviously there were counter cultures then, and I refer to the dominant forces in England-of-its-time. Frederick Ashton's ballet set to Enigma Variations demonstrates this.

[Pabmusic]

I'd say that Elgar's music sounds quintessentially English-of-its-time. Obviously there were counter cultures then, and I refer to the dominant forces in England-of-its-time. Frederick Ashton's ballet set to Enigma Variations demonstrates this.

And wouldn't it be good to have that on DVD.

[visualnickmos]

Just to throw a wild cat into the 'fray'

Here in France, the music of Elgar is used in bucket-loads as background to numerous documentaries, or programmes that demand a certain level of reverence. Admittedly, it is mostly (but NOT exclusively) Enigma, Pomp, or a chunk of a symphony. And I'm NOT talking about programmes with any English subject matter, just in case anyone may think that. For example there was an in-depth programme about the Elysees Palace a few years ago - all with a backdrop of Elgar.

So where does that leave the question about what constitutes English music. I don' believe there is any pre-set formula that dictates what is English music and what isn't; apart from, perhaps this (and this is spurious); is it Music that was composed by and Englishman? So if, say, RVW had written a Suite Espanol, would that still be English music? This leads me to deduce that it almost a British obsession to have to put a label of some kind on pretty much everything! It doesn't really have much purpose, actually.