Franck and fashion

[antongould]

Interesting questions indeed mercs but somewhat above me. Encouraged by this excellent thread I have gone back to the symphony and think it is, IMVHO, a rather fine example of the form.

[cloughie]

Interesting questions indeed mercs but somewhat above me. Encouraged by this excellent thread I have gone back to the symphony and think it is, IMVHO, a rather fine example of the form.

I agree anton - but not the most cheery - even under Beecham's baton!

[Barbirollians]

I wonder if Nezet-Seguin plans to record it as he did give performances under the LPO recently in London.

[Serial_Apologist]

just wondering if people here agree with wikipedia

"........the Symphony in D minor remains the most outstanding example of cyclic symphonic writing in the Romantic tradition. However, Franck also used a typically "Germanic" sound, eschewing both the novelties of orchestration (with one notable exception) or nationalist thematic inspiration that Saint-Saëns and d'Indy had used to differentiate their own symphonic works. As a result, Franck's Symphony in D minor can be seen as the union of two largely distinct national forms: the French cyclic form with the German romantic symphonic form, with clear Wagnerian and Lisztian influences.

Due in part to this unexpected fusion, the piece was poorly received upon its first performance. More importantly, however, the reception of Franck's symphony was greatly affected by the politicised world of French music following the split in the Société Nationale de Musique, which had been founded by Saint-Saëns in 1871 in reaction to anti-German sentiment aroused by the Franco-Prussian War."



and a supplementary - would you say it is evident/obvious/significant/relevant from Franck and Bruckner's orchestral writing that they were organists ?

Spot on - both times!

[Dave2002]

For another blazing finale version try Yan Pascal Tortelier on Chandos -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cesar-Franck-Symphony-Symphonic-Variations/dp/B000056KND/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1405424091&sr=1-2&keywords=cesar+franck+symphonic+variations

- http://open.spotify.com/track/5mfMv6Ar0BniSUcixZ9J8L

[jayne lee wilson]

See my post no.28 - "Mon orgue, c'est mon orchestre" said Franck about his local. He and AB did admire each other's work. As quoted in Jon Swain's excellent 3/99 Collection Article in the G. I bought most of his main recommendations, and...

Of all the many recordings I've bought and heard, the Mercury Stereo Paray always stands out. Shame it's become expensive/elusive, but if you find a half-affordable one just grab it - no regrets there!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

However, Franck also used a typically "Germanic" sound, eschewing both the novelties of orchestration (with one notable exception)

Two, shirley? (Cor Anglais and Harp.)

and a supplementary - would you say it is evident/obvious/significant/relevant from Franck and Bruckner's orchestral writing that they were organists ?

I've encountered this point before, and then there seemed to be a suggestion that Franck and Bruckner wrote their Symphonies at the organ and then "orchestrated" them. Bach and Messiaen were also organists - is this any more/less evident in their orchestral writing? I'm not at all sure that it is any more (or any less) significant than Beethoven and Liszt being pianists, or Berlioz being a gutarist, or Ferneyhough being a trumpeter, or Birtwistle being a Clarinettist: the evidence is that the individual sound that each gets from their orchestras is very different from each other.

[ahinton]

Two, shirley? (Cor Anglais and Harp.)


I've encountered this point before, and then there seemed to be a suggestion that Franck and Bruckner wrote their Symphonies at the organ and then "orchestrated" them. Bach and Messiaen were also organists - is this any more/less evident in their orchestral writing? I'm not at all sure that it is any more (or any less) significant than Beethoven and Liszt being pianists, or Berlioz being a gutarist, or Ferneyhough being a trumpeter, or Birtwistle being a Clarinettist: the evidence is that the individual sound that each gets from their orchestras is very different from each other.

I'm sure that you're right about this although, to be fair, Birtwistle (happy 80th, by the way!) hasn't played the clarinet for decades (any more than the only slightly younger Payne has), nor Ferneyhough the trumpet and Berlioz didn't do a whole lot of guitar playing either, as far as I know! (I heard some while ago, incidentally, that Carter once told someone that he'd not played the oboe for around 75 years...)

[Dave2002]

Of all the many recordings I've bought and heard, the Mercury Stereo Paray always stands out. Shame it's become expensive/elusive, but if you find a half-affordable one just grab it - no regrets there!

Recording and/or performance? I don't have the CD, but listened to it recently. I felt that Munch moved along better, but maybe if one compares the CDs Paray is as good. I'll look out for it at a reasonable price.

Not easy to find right now - apart from the ArkivMusic service - http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/...ing%20Presence - which I guess makes CD-Rs to order. Dodgier enthusiasts may look for torrential offerings.

Maybe it'll appear if there's a 3rd Mercury box set.

[jayne lee wilson]

Re. The Paray Franck in Stereo (there is an earlier mono one) - I'm only writing of the original Mercury CD issue c/w the equally spectacular, albeit slightly bar-reduced, Rachmaninov 2...(girl in white dress on the cover**). It's simply one of Mercury's best ever, vivid vindication of their method but - you know me - I'll never accept that bit-reduced streamings can really do justice to a taping like this. Not many CDs have impressed me more, and it tends to sound better, the better the system gets...
"Brisk and buoyant, sleek and supple, dapper but not in the least dandified..." was Jon Swain's lovely description. Oh, what a shame more people don't have that G. archive...so much food for thought and discussion in that article, as many others...

Musically the sheer directness of it wins you over as a whole performance, and no orchestral section is anything other than comme il faut. And yes, it does sound French. It never gets too thick or hefty. Nicht schleppend, Herr Bruckner!

Now about the EMI-Toshiba of the Karajan/Paris....

(**delicate pastel shades of pink & blue in it too..)

[Dave2002]

jayne

re msg 70, I very much suspect you're right. It is possible to hear a "facsimile" of the CD here - http://open.spotify.com/track/1Y5CPJWfjqz61QD0tVwTvw
but as you say it almost certainly doesn't sound anything like the original CD - or perhaps even the LPs if anyone has those and the kit to play it/them on. A lot will, however, depend on the playback equipment, which will need to be good to make the most of a good source.

I don't really want to open up a vinyl vs digital, or CD vs SACD or vs download discussion here, but I can say that I have heard some analogue recordings in the past which were really good when played back on good equipment. Although the "average" level of sound reproduction has gone up from the Dansette or radiogram level these days with CDs, I think very few people really understand the difference between merely OK reproduction, and good and outstanding sound quality.

mp3 players and the like have brought mediocre quality music to the masses, but it takes something very very much better to get anywhere near the sound of a decent orchestra, and to get the degree of involvement which some recordings can provide. OTOH there are many serious musicians who don't seem too bothered either - possibly because they can fill in the gaps themselves, or they expect something completely different.

[richardfinegold]

Recording and/or performance? I don't have the CD, but listened to it recently. I felt that Munch moved along better, but maybe if one compares the CDs Paray is as good. I'll look out for it at a reasonable price.

Not easy to find right now - apart from the ArkivMusic service - http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/...ing%20Presence - which I guess makes CD-Rs to order. Dodgier enthusiasts may look for torrential offerings.

Maybe it'll appear if there's a 3rd Mercury box set.

I obtained mine from Arkivmusik .

[Ferretfancy]

jayne

re msg 70, I very much suspect you're right. It is possible to hear a "facsimile" of the CD here - http://open.spotify.com/track/1Y5CPJWfjqz61QD0tVwTvw
but as you say it almost certainly doesn't sound anything like the original CD - or perhaps even the LPs if anyone has those and the kit to play it/them on. A lot will, however, depend on the playback equipment, which will need to be good to make the most of a good source.

I don't really want to open up a vinyl vs digital, or CD vs SACD or vs download discussion here, but I can say that I have heard some analogue recordings in the past which were really good when played back on good equipment. Although the "average" level of sound reproduction has gone up from the Dansette or radiogram level these days with CDs, I think very few people really understand the difference between merely OK reproduction, and good and outstanding sound quality.

mp3 players and the like have brought mediocre quality music to the masses, but it takes something very very much better to get anywhere near the sound of a decent orchestra, and to get the degree of involvement which some recordings can provide. OTOH there are many serious musicians who don't seem too bothered either - possibly because they can fill in the gaps themselves, or they expect something completely different.

Dave

I remember many years ago going to a talk by Brian Priestman on the subject of Bruckner symphonies. He illustrated his argument with musical examples played over a small tannoy speaker high up on the wall ! Notwithstanding that, he urged us to admire the writing for horns in No. 5 etc. etc. All the details were there in his mind, but not obvious to us!
To me, the heyday of stereo ended with the accretion of yet more technology with its multi-tracking and complex mix downs for even modestly sized orchestras. I've sometimes counted as many as thirty microphones at quite standard concerts at the RFH and Barbican. The phase coherence which is necessary to create a recognisable listening acoustic disappears with these techniques.

[Dave2002]

The phase coherence which is necessary to create a recognisable listening acoustic disappears with these techniques.

I agree - it's probably impossible to achieve.

I do recall reading a book on microphone techniques - probably from the 1970s or 1980s in which it was emphasised that microphones should be set up for phase coherence, and on a pairwise basis as I recall this was done using an oscilloscope - no digital stuff there!

I've not noticed 30 or more microphones at concert hall venues, but I certainly have counted up to 32 at Maida Vale.
Some recordings made with just a few microphones from earlier years still sound very good.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

One reason that early Decca digital recordings were so highly praised was because a simpler microphone setup was used. A few years later I was involved in a late analogue recording at CTS Studios, where every orchestral desk had its own microphone and the result was noticeably artificial.