.. in praise of live classical music

[Beef Oven!]

I agree entirely with Jayne. What an amazing nonsense the editor managed to publish!

First, the title: How classical led me to love live performance

I guess this is intended to be (mis-) read as ‘how going to live performance led me to love classical music’: a topical and nicely PC subject. However, the article has nothing to do with hearing classical music at a concert. As Jayne says, there are just too many nonsensical utterances to pick out but I think this more than suggests that this Greenwood person has very limited idea, if anything at all, about classical music concert:

If you're interested, hunt out live classical music, especially the kind that doesn't rely on PA systems.

Interested in what? If this were by a 17-year old, it would be good to read about his/her discovery but when it is by someone who is actually in music profession, it becomes rather suspicious. Ah well, I expect all the editors were on holiday and nobody read it carefully before the publication to fill the space.

But on the up-side, many rock/pop fans will read Johnny Greenwood's words and it will make them curious about classical music. I think that's a positive.

I should say that I've always loved Radiohead (JG's band) so perhaps I'm biased.

[Blotto]

[aeolium]

It is not just a matter of sheer noise.

Getting people interested in classical music is not just about decibels, but the enormous range of colours, emotions, interactions, skills and volumes, even more important it is the realisation that this is a group of real human beings making that noise, unaided, not amplified and / or multi-tracked, but playing there and then in front of you. It is the social interaction: the players are interacting with each other, and the audience is drawn into that mix.

Structures and shapes i the music comes later.

It wasn't like that at all for me. All the excitement came from discovering the music from recordings (my elder brother usually providing the discoveries for me) and what was broadcast on Radio 3. I never went to a concert (apart from school concerts) until I was at university and never saw a live opera until quite a bit later - poverty didn't really allow for it. It just never occurred to me that the live experience of a concert was intrinsically superior to listening on record or on radio. Since then I have been to many concerts, some uninspiring and some wonderful, but my concert experience in no way devalues the treasury of memorable recordings or indeed live radio broadcasts both of which have enabled me to discover far more music than I ever could have by attending concerts.

[french frank]

but my concert experience in no way devalues the treasury of memorable recordings or indeed live radio broadcasts both of which have enabled me to discover far more music than I ever could have by attending concerts.

That's a very balanced view . I didn't feel that JG's emphasis was intended to be on devaluing recording, so for me all the indignation seems misplaced.

I suspect most of 'us' underestimate the huge musical gap between 'us' and 'everyone else'. Jonny Greenwood is frequently referred to as 'classically trained' - which appears to mean he had viola lessons when he was at school, since after 3 weeks at Oxford Brookes University, he left with a Radiohead contract.

That isn't to disparage what he does, nor the music that he composes: it simply shows that the vast majority of the population is completely ignorant. If some musicians cultivate whatever bit of music interests them, it doesn't make them gurus on 'classical music' (or anything much except themselves?).

If Radio 3 can't produce anything more musically profound than it does, sure as hell a newspaper won't - even a 'quality' title.

[doversoul1]

I didn't feel that JG's emphasis was intended to be on devaluing recording, so for me all the indignation seems misplaced.

I thought the article was effectively saying ‘if you want to try classical music, don’t bother with recorded music’ from his comment like this.

And yet, applied to acoustic classical music, all bets are off. I don't trust microphones or speakers for that, whether it's recorded or played live. They approximate and inflate rather than distil and concentrate

If Radio 3 can't produce anything more musically profound than it does, sure as hell a newspaper won't - even a 'quality' title.

How I agree with you here.

[french frank]

I thought the article was effectively saying ‘if you want to try classical music, don’t bother with recorded music’ from his comment like this.

And yet, applied to acoustic classical music, all bets are off. I don't trust microphones or speakers for that, whether it's recorded or played live. They approximate and inflate rather than distil and concentrate

This was obviously the expression of a personal opinion (hence the "I") about his personal experience. A piece on a Guardian music blog isn't the place to go for enlightenment: it might just as well have been someone else writing about the glories of pop music and the snobbishness of classical elitists. Eminently ignorable.

The piece has a lot of garbage, but I think the target is wrong if you blame the ignorance rather than the causes of ignorance. Most of us appear to be unaware that in the music we enjoy, the way we choose to enjoy it, the way we engage with it as teachers or practitioners we inhabit the far reaches of a sparsely populated land. Don't expect the barbarians to bring civilisation! :-)

[Blotto]

It's a thinnish, muddled piece but there's nothing in it that I find comparably offensive to the remarks made about it here.

Are you generally more civil, do you think?

[Serial_Apologist]

It's a thinnish, muddled piece but there's nothing in it that I find comparably offensive to the remarks made about it here.

Are you generally more civil, do you think?

Can't say I've found anything particularly offensive in the debate - but there again, I haven't actually contributed to the thread...

[french frank]

It's a thinnish, muddled piece but there's nothing in it that I find comparably offensive to the remarks made about it here.

Are you saying that you are personally offended by the comments? Insofar as they are comments about the article and what it says, they seem like fair comment.

Is 'thinnish' and 'muddled' less offensive? As I mentioned above, reading the comment that I was talking a lot of garbage was not something that offended me. If someone publishes their views, others are entitled to express their thoughts on it. Even in public. No?

[Beef Oven!]

I think I understand your point. If I do, then

[jayne lee wilson]

That's a very balanced view . I didn't feel that JG's emphasis was intended to be on devaluing recording, so for me all the indignation seems misplaced.

I suspect most of 'us' underestimate the huge musical gap between 'us' and 'everyone else'. Jonny Greenwood is frequently referred to as 'classically trained' - which appears to mean he had viola lessons when he was at school, since after 3 weeks at Oxford Brookes University, he left with a Radiohead contract.

That isn't to disparage what he does, nor the music that he composes: it simply shows that the vast majority of the population is completely ignorant. If some musicians cultivate whatever bit of music interests them, it doesn't make them gurus on 'classical music' (or anything much except themselves?).

If Radio 3 can't produce anything more musically profound than it does, sure as hell a newspaper won't - even a 'quality' title.

Not devaluing recordings?
"If you haven't heard it live, you haven't heard it", and the priceless "think of those speakers as barriers rather than amplifiers and listen to the real thing whenever you can". Seem pretty unequivocal to me...

I do love that "classically trained..." always appended to anyone from a rock or pop background appearing in a classical context, just to reassure the stuffy old classical music lovers that we really should take them seriously...

You often see it attached to certain Classic FM presenters as well.... not Myleene Klass of course, whose musical and modelling accomplishments are clear to all who witness them!

[french frank]

Not devaluing recordings?
"If you haven't heard it live, you haven't heard it", and the priceless "think of those speakers as barriers rather than amplifiers and listen to the real thing whenever you can". Seem pretty unequivocal to me...

I was referring to the balance and emphasis, not one side of the argument selectively quoted.

Listening live is a different experience, and sound quality isn't the only issue. At least, it isn't the only issue for everyone. I'd guess 'recordings' mean something very different for you and for me, for example.

[doversoul1]

A piece on a Guardian music blog isn't the place to go for enlightenment:

Oh, is that what this is? Ah well in that case, let him say what he likes (almost). I really must train myself to be more media literate.

Beef#76
In theory, I agree with you but I think it is rather irresponsible (even in a blog) of him to promise a great thing based on his experience that few young people can even dream of. Besides, what chance have young people in a place like, say, Dover have in finding a classical music concert that is musically worthwhile hearing and not a thinly disguised social gathering to which s/he is unlikely to be part?

[ed.]
french frank

Listening live is a different experience

,
Ah, but that is not what this Greenwood person is saying. He is actually saying, throughout this piece, ‘Live music Good. Recording (when it’s classical music) baaaaad’. Does he not? Sorry to repeat the quote:

And yet, applied to acoustic classical music, all bets are off. I don't trust microphones or speakers for that, whether it's recorded or played live. They approximate and inflate rather than distil and concentrate

[Bryn]

Ceci n'est pas la musique.

[Nevalti]

Sorry, but I've never seen more nonsense per paragraph in an article about live and reproduced music in a very long time. Ah, so Ligeti and Penderecki always sound harsh through speakers do they? Strange I never noticed that...

Some of us have little or no access to live music for various reasons (not to mention the dread dullness of mainstream rep. at concerts..). Oh WHAT a shame we can't enjoy recordings at home, feeling guilty as Maestro Greenwood puts us in our place. Yet another prime example of black&white thinking - the dichotomy of extremes fallacy applied to the ultra-faux "live vs recorded debate"...

Is that a sour note to come back on? It was meant to be! (Would love to know what Nevalti thinks of Johnny G...)
Hope to have more positive things to say about the Glory that is Recorded Orchestral Music soon...

**ps... digital music is certainly NOT just 1s and 0s. The HiFi buff had one over the "Legendary" Rock Producer there...

Hello Jayne, I hope you are well. I haven’t been on line recently but Colonel Bogey told me that you had mentioned my name – so I will give you a fairly long response.

I quite liked Jonny Greenwood’s music but his technique was simply what Gordon Giltrap was doing when Jonny was still in short trousers. As for his comments, where do you start? Yes, of course live music is better than recorded music – with HUGE CAVEATS. ‘Realism’ starts to get lost at the microphone and at every stage of amplification and manipulation along a very long ‘spoiling chain’ to the final source of loss – our loudspeakers and their interaction with the acoustics of our listening room. Despite that spoiling process, most people can easily be fooled into believing that the music they are listening to is live. The whole ‘spoiling chain’ can be that good. GOOD recorded music can therefore sound vastly better than LIVE mediocre music. Similarly, poorly reproduced GOOD music can be better than brilliantly recorded mediocre music.

I used to have several LPs of Scheherazade. The best version of them all was on the budget MFP label and stamped on cheap re-cycled vinyl. It was the scratchiest, pop-iest LP that I owned. I was scared every time I played it that it would damage my precious stylus but the music, even with the crackles, pops and surface noise was quite wonderful. I have heard Scheherazade live many times BUT that dirt-cheap MFP LP provided a musical experience head and shoulders above all of them. All this ‘proves’ is that generalisations such as those used by Jonny Greenwood are pretty short sighted.

I am sure we can all recognise his zeal as that of a recent convert. He seems overcome by a fervour which is blinding him to the undoubted qualities of (some) recorded music. The enjoyment of playing in a group of musicians is a very different experience from merely listening. When I used to play, it was, to start with, delightful and exciting in a way that I never feel when listening to music now. I can just about experience it, with nostalgia, when listening to a recording which includes ME (made many years before Jonny was born!). It seems that Jonny is confusing the two experiences and is just rambling because someone paid him to write a few ill-chosen words about it.

Although he is probably as deaf as most rock musicians, it seems that he almost understands, “If you're interested, hunt out live classical music, especially the kind that doesn't rely on PA systems.” If only he hadn't added those revealing words between ‘especially’ and ‘systems’ I might have been just a tiny bit impressed that he recognises just how much recorded music can be messed up by the recording engineer. I guess he has been to one of those awful ‘proms in the park’ performances and realised that PA systems are not appropriate. Yes, we all knew that Jonny - but maybe there’s hope for the lad yet.

His denigration of audiophiles is no different from all the other mockers, here and elsewhere, who fail to understand why some of us consider it worth spending a bit of effort to ensure that our ‘at home’ listening experience is as good as it can be. No one mocks if we live in a carefully chosen house, wear carefully chosen clothes/watches/jewellery or drive a carefully chosen car but, for some reason, they do if we show similar discernment in the performance of our music machines. Is that a bizarre double standard or is it a combination of ignorance and jealousy?