.. in praise of live classical music

[MrGongGong]

Surely we need to have discussions about music that are much more nuanced and not full of the false dichotomies that seem to be everywhere ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Surely we need to have discussions about music that are much more nuanced and not full of the false dichotomies that seem to be everywhere ?

Can't we have both?

[Richard Barrett]

If Greenwood can use his fame , profile, talent to bring new and interesting music to those that admire him, then that is all to the good.
The article does seem to come from a rather inaccessible place, for most people, as well as appearing rather dismissive of the channels that brought his own music so many people.

Exactly.

Of course it doesn't matter at what age someone experiences a realisation of (in this case) the uniqueness of live performance of orchestral music, but for someone who presumably has played hundreds of concerts with his own group, avows a liking for certain twentieth-century composers such as Penderecki whose output is principally for orchestra, and indeed has himself written music for "classical" ensemble, to take such a long time for this to take place seems a bit strange to say the least.

[MrGongGong]

but does anyone seriously disagree with the proposition that "live" is a better experience?

Yes, I do
because he is not comparing like with like and they are not the same thing anyway
So it's a bit of a meaningless statement.
Some music is wonderful live and lacks much in recordings (Atmospheres or Bird and Person Dyning for example) and some is wonderful in recordings and lacks much live.
And SOME music ONLY exists in recordings.

It's all far to simplistic IMV

[Beef Oven!]

This is an extension of the argument that Classical Music is elitist fare, and that we should be more inclusive and accessible.
I couldn't disagree more. If others have that perception of us (CM aficionados), that is their problem. We should have high standards for excellence and be allowed to indulge our tastes without feeling the need to pander to others. Some people will be attracted to the Music, and others won't. It never was a mass popularity phenomenon.

Actually, what I meant was that the high standards that we have for our music can be maintained and even improved, if we ensure that enthusiastic and talented people are accommodated, rather than put down.

I'm not interested in being inclusive, accessible, elitist or any other distraction. I seem to care a little more about 'others' that are interested in music than you, but I don't think I ever pander.

I don't know what it is that you are disagreeing with anyway, because I don't understand what a 'CM aficionado' is. Am I one? What is it?

[Beef Oven!]

Yes, I do
because he is not comparing like with like and they are not the same thing anyway
So it's a bit of a meaningless statement.
Some music is wonderful live and lacks much in recordings (Atmospheres or Bird and Person Dyning for example) and some is wonderful in recordings and lacks much live.
And SOME music ONLY exists in recordings.

It's all far to simplistic IMV

Nail hit squarely on its head.

[Richard Barrett]

The use of "classical music" as some kind of clearly-defined category always leads to confusion. This is I think part of what MrGG means by false dichotomies.

[richardfinegold]

Actually, what I meant was that the high standards that we have for our music can be maintained and even improved, if we ensure that enthusiastic and talented people are accommodated, rather than put down.

I'm not interested in being inclusive, accessible, elitist or any other distraction. I seem to care a little more about 'others' that are interested in music than you, but I don't think I ever pander.

I don't know what it is that you are disagreeing with anyway, because I don't understand what a 'CM aficionado' is. Am I one? What is it?

You know very well what I mean. 98 percent of the Western world World could care less about Classical Music; of the remainder, surely only a very small minority participate in Internet Forums devoted to it. How many people are listening to Haydn baryton Trios today. You have great taste, wit, and write very well, Beef. You are an aficionado, and a damn fine one, IMO.
You appear to dislike being tagged as an "elitist" or something of that nature and that is understandable. For years I would wince at that description and thought it was unfair. Just because I am intensely devoted to a hobby that is perceived by others as being the Hallmark of an Elitist shouldn't define my entire worldview. However, after years of dodging it, I no longer care. Yes, we have Standards, Beefy, and we ought to be proud of, and not defensive.
I have several discs of the "Itzhak Perlman Plays Metallica" theme. I use them as drink coasters. I don't want to mock the likes of Jonny Greenwood and agree that people like him should not be buried under a mountain of stupid snobbery. I just don't wish to pander to them, or anyone else.

[MrGongGong]

The use of "classical music" as some kind of clearly-defined category always leads to confusion. This is I think part of what MrGG means by false dichotomies.

Indeed

[Beef Oven!]

You know very well what I mean. 98 percent of the Western world World could care less about Classical Music; of the remainder, surely only a very small minority participate in Internet Forums devoted to it. How many people are listening to Haydn baryton Trios today. You have great taste, wit, and write very well, Beef. You are an aficionado, and a damn fine one, IMO.
You appear to dislike being tagged as an "elitist" or something of that nature and that is understandable. For years I would wince at that description and thought it was unfair. Just because I am intensely devoted to a hobby that is perceived by others as being the Hallmark of an Elitist shouldn't define my entire worldview. However, after years of dodging it, I no longer care. Yes, we have Standards, Beefy, and we ought to be proud of, and not defensive.
I have several discs of the "Itzhak Perlman Plays Metallica" theme. I use them as drink coasters. I don't want to mock the likes of Jonny Greenwood and agree that people like him should not be buried under a mountain of stupid snobbery. I just don't wish to pander to them, or anyone else.

I'd love to be tagged as an elitist!! If only!

Seriously though, we may be saying the same thing but getting our wires crossed. I can't define those standards, but I know they are there. I don't listen to any old tosh. But the Jonny Greenwoods et al, will add nourishment to our music and we should embrace them, not shun or be suspicious.

[french frank]

It's all far to simplistic IMV

I think the suggestion that he is 'naive' means one would expect nothing else. But I took him (simplistically - him or me) to be comparing like with like, as in saying X heard live sounds better than X on a recording. That doesn't bring into the equation work that was specifically composed for some kind of electronic technology. I think the naivety comes in many forms where people make personal discoveries and think they've made a great contribution to universal knowledge if they tell everyone what they've discovered. They have no awareness that they're just arriving where others have been for years. So, no, they don't get everything right. If that's what people are saying ...

[MrGongGong]

I think the suggestion that he is 'naive' means one would expect nothing else. But I took him (simplistically - him or me) to be comparing like with like, as in saying X heard live sounds better than X on a recording.

Even in that instance (which rules out huge swathes of music) I find the absolutist stance a bit much.
There are pieces of the string quartet repertoire that I prefer as recordings, for example.

[Blotto]

In a year off from Radiohead, I've been writing scored music for small string groups ... It's intended for concerts instead of recordings, which is a new way of thinking about music for me. It's led me to think differently about live music.

It's a very affecting thing to be in the same room as these musicians ... watching the LCO play is a thrilling experience that recordings can't match.

I love the impermanence of the music live: it's played in the room ... and on Saturday 14 June we're playing at the wind tunnels in Farnborough, Hampshire – neither space is intended for concerts ... these variables add to the complexity and unpredictability of the sound.

I was raised on recordings ... I had my embarrassing hi-fi phase in the 90s ... people into hi-fi had a worryingly clinical taste in music.

Or was it the other way round? More likely, the technology led the taste. Audiophile listeners start shedding dirtier favourites ... Letting the speakers dictate what's played though them.

This whole idea of roughness in recording is interesting. The studio notes for Never Mind the Bollocks betray enormous care ... went into making that glorious vitriol and sparkle reach the final record.

Bands today try to replicate that recording in the belief that its rough sound can be emulated with a rough recording ... (that) it can't be replicated only makes ... the notion of what makes a good recording even harder to pin down. That's why I still enjoy recording studios ...

And yet, applied to acoustic classical music, all bets are off. I don't trust microphones or speakers for that, whether it's recorded or played live. They approximate and inflate rather than distil and concentrate. And with ... music such as Ligeti or Penderecki, mics and speakers make things sound harsh and discordant. The live experience is far softer, stranger and more colourful than two speakers ... you can't reproduce that in your front room, any more than the National Geographic channel reproduces Madagascar.

If you're interested, hunt out live classical music ... Think of those speakers as barriers instead of amplifiers, and listen to the real thing whenever you can.

It's not surprising if a quick bit of clickbait like these paragraphs is insubstantial but there are some interesting points in it even if Greenwood doesn't make the most of his material. He's not really saying anything more than that inexperience allowed the wool to be pulled over his eyes but experience has begun to remove it, is he? He offers this experience and several other loose thoughts to others who might also be misled.

Who's he talking to? A mixed group, it seems. I think the piece isn't clear enough to show that the point he wishes to make isn't to the group he's commenting on. The group he comments on are people for whom music is a means of experiencing technology. But the group he's addressing are those who may absorb and reflect the sincere puritanism of the technologists' convictions which can seem to be about refined musical appreciation but may not be.

[Richard Barrett]

It's not surprising if a quick bit of clickbait like these paragraphs is insubstantial but there are some interesting points in it even if Greenwood doesn't make the most of his material.

How did it come into fashion for there to be so many articles in the culture sections of newspapers written by (more or less famous) people who admit (or give away that) they don't have a particularly deep grasp of what they're writing about, as if knowledge needs to be counterbalanced by an equal amount of ignorance? I think this I-don't-know-much-about-it-but-I-know-what-I-bloody-well-like happens in music journalism more than elsewhere.

[french frank]

How did it come into fashion

Celebrity culture? It's commissioned because the people are 'more or less famous'. More of a draw than a nobody who knows what they're talking about.