The Brahms Experience

[kernelbogey]

Orchestral recordings on period instruments are rare, but for HIPPs - Berglund/COE, Mackerras/SCO, and Manze's marvellous Symphony cycle with an orchestra of around 60 (Helsingborg SO) really are revelatory. Completely different sonic and emotional experience from the tradition that became famous in the "classic stereo" era from the 50s through 70s. (Dorati was almost HIPPs avant la lettre but even that sounds a shade hefty to me now).

We overlook too often the effect on our musical perception of the "recorded tradition" which became established through those decades and dominated interpretative as well as buying choices.[....]

Are we saying much the same thing Jayne? I agree with you about the 'recorded tradition', but when I was first getting interested in 'classical' music around 1960, any orchestral music was played by a big band - Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, and the BBC followed suit. I'd come home from school for lunch and hear George Hurst conducting a BBC (Northern?) SO in that sort of repertoire. I'm saying that once HIPP came along, Brahms (and a few other C19 composers) began to stand out more as having a big orchestral sound.
PS [edit]: I'll explore Manze, thanks: you don't mention Gardiner or Norrington in this context...?

[kea]

I find both Gardiner and Norrington quite mannered to the point of distraction, but then I seem to like old school Brahms, Furtwängler and so forth (perhaps due to being raised on a steady diet of Jochum/LPO). Quite probably someone unmoved by the traditional Brahms performances would find a good deal to admire in them.

I don't know how much Harnoncourt's recording is influenced by HIP but it's also quite good, as is Mackerras. Manze is superbly conducted but the orchestra lags behind at times.

[vinteuil]

Quite probably someone unmoved by the traditional Brahms performances would find a good deal to admire in them.

.

... well, it was indeed the Norrington recordings of the Brahms Symphonies that first enabled me to enjoy this music, after many years of getting little from 'big band' performances.

[kea]

... well, it was indeed the Norrington recordings of the Brahms Symphonies that first enabled me to enjoy this music, after many years of getting little from 'big band' performances.

Well, there you go. I suppose Norrington can then be safely recommended to Richard Barrett, PG Tipps and any others who've not had luck with the standard approach.

I've not yet found a huge amount of HIP Brahms, but have 4 volumes of piano works played by Hardy Rittner on pianos of the era, and the L'Archibudelli recording of the sextets which is quite possibly my favourite recording of anything ever. I'm still looking for period performances of the Piano Trios, Quartets & Quintet as they seem to suffer the most from Steinwayisation, not that this would do much to alleviate the thickness of Brahms's writing (which was also remarked upon, and criticised, in his day—there's a famous anecdote).

[cloughie]

Reminds me of the days of the Third Programme when Donald Swann teamed up with Henry Reed and provided spoof atonal music (that might better have been done by Humphrey Searle, who occasionally collaborated, as Swann was later to do, with Gererd Hoffnung) for the fictitious "composeress" Hilda Tablet.


I take your point about the former but the First Symphony is WONDERFUL!

The 2nd Symphony and the 2nd Piano Concerto even better and Serenade No1 and the Double Concerto are amongst my top Brahms choices!

[BBMmk2]

Choosing your favourite Brahms work, a difficult one!!

[amateur51]

Choosing your favourite Brahms work, a difficult one!!

And unnecessary Bbm

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And unnecessary Bbm

[kernelbogey]

I think no one's mentioned here the Schoenberg orchestration of the Piano Quartet no1, which I think is a riot: I love hearing it, especially the finale. Brahms orchestral doubters here might enjoy that! I wonder what Johannes himself would have thought.

[ahinton]

I think no one's mentioned here the Schoenberg orchestration of the Piano Quartet no1, which I think is a riot: I love hearing it, especially the finale. Brahms orchestral doubters here might enjoy that! I wonder what Johannes himself would have thought.

Yes, it's terrific, isn't it! I've no idea what Brahms would have thought but then I might just as well wonder what he'd have thought of Schönberg's Brahms the Progressive where he gives the composer pride of place in Style and Idea...

[amateur51]

I think no one's mentioned here the Schoenberg orchestration of the Piano Quartet no1, which I think is a riot: I love hearing it, especially the finale. Brahms orchestral doubters here might enjoy that! I wonder what Johannes himself would have thought.

Am I running a high temperature (just had my flu jab ) or are The Powers That Be planning a Cbeebies Prom next year with Sooty playing the xylophone in this piece next year?

[Serial_Apologist]

Am I running a high temperature (just had my flu jab ) or are The Powers That Be planning a Cbeebies Prom next year with Sooty playing the xylophone in this piece next year?

That xylophone passage always makes me think of Shostakovitch; I wonder if AS intended to invoke such an incongruous association.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Am I running a high temperature (just had my flu jab ) or are The Powers That Be planning a Cbeebies Prom next year with Sooty playing the xylophone in this piece next year?

Ismarck, wismarck, let's get ....

[vinteuil]

I've not yet found a huge amount of HIP Brahms, but have 4 volumes of piano works played by Hardy Rittner on pianos of the era, and the L'Archibudelli recording of the sextets which is quite possibly my favourite recording of anything ever.

I love the Rittner discs - and the Archibudelli is just marvellous

[vinteuil]

I think no one's mentioned here the Schoenberg orchestration of the Piano Quartet no1, which I think is a riot: I love hearing it, especially the finale. Brahms orchestral doubters here might enjoy that! I wonder what Johannes himself would have thought.

.... meanwhile, on the Brahms Piano Quartet thread, #19 [4 October] -

The odd thing about this piece for me, is that I knew and loved the Schoenberg orchestration for about 20 years before ever hearing the original version

So perhaps that's why I shy away from the 'big' performances which sound like they're straining to be orchestras, but can only palely approach Arnie's version - whereas the 'understated' readings place the work in a distinct soundworld which has me personally hearing it all afresh.