John Ogdon - Living with Genius

[Nick Armstrong]

BTW, that clip with Ogden on the stage and the orchestra in a pit was indeed extremely odd!

Did you think it looked like Karajan conducting?

[Richard Tarleton]

Bloody odd presentation of the concert after on BBC 4 wasn't it? Odd soft focus on La Derham's particularly bouffante hair-do - it practically only needed a wind machine to complete the strange filmic effect - and an odd audience... and 4 DSCH Preludes and Fugues captioned of which we only got 2 (unless in the producer's mind 2 x Preludes and 2 x Fugues = 4 Preludes and Fugues )

Bit of a lash-up I thought.

Yes a bit heavy on the Elnett - KD's hair deserved its own programme, I thought.

By coincidence the excellent Peter Donohoe was also (when it mattered, relatively early in his career) not an obvious poster-boy, and was the subject of a completely misjudged marketing campaign by his then record company, who tried to sex him up and give him a record-sleeve persona which didn't suit him at all. Luckily he found his own direction. A regular in these parts I'm happy to say.

I was lucky enough to see John Ogdon twice, and in the nick of time by the sound of it - both times concertos in the RFH - the Grieg with Previn/LSO (standing in at the very last minute for Gina Bachauer) in 1971 and Beethoven 4 with Loughran/Hallé in 1972. The latter was one of the most thrilling concerts I've ever been to - I was sitting in the front row of the choir seats, just behind the brass , and the remainder of the programme consisted of Prelude to Act 3 of Lohengrin and Bruckner 7. Several pints in the Coal Hole needed to calm down afterwards.

[Lordgeous]

Thank you, John. I wonder if it's true he'd have 'gone nowhere' today? It's true he'd have been a marketing nightmare, but I think he might still have won competitions. Being 'physically in attractive' is less important, sadly, for a man than it is for a woman. There are quite a few physically unattractive performers around.

I know he did compose, but the bits I've heard of his work don't sound anything special to me. I doubt if his composing shows the 'genius' his playing does.

Sorry to disagree Mary but I thought the short extract Donahoe played in the documentary was rather beautiful and left me wanting to hear more.

[johnb]

Sadly, I never saw John Ogdon perform. The first time I heard of him was when I was a teenager living in Manchester and the music teacher (who had been to the RMCM at around the same time as JO) bounced into the class room, obviously delighted, and announced that JO had won the Tchaikovsky Competition (well, joint winner).

One of the things that struck me as I watched the programme was when BL said that she had been the female "star" and John Ogdon the male "star" at the RMCM and how she had been advised not to marry him because two "peacocks" together were not a good idea. I've no idea how good a pianist BL actually was (or is) but it struck me that those comments were quite revealing.

Incidentally, she explained how John Paul Getty Jnr had bought John Ogdon a Steinway D and then bought them two flats* to put it in (amazing generosity) but failed to mention that she then bagged the Steinway for her flat, leaving JO with a rented upright.

I do wish the BBC would re-broadcast the "Virtuoso" film that starred Alfred Molino and I seem to remember there was another programme on JO that the BBC did around the same time which included Peter Maxwell Davies and Alexander Goehr, etc. (It is always possible that these interviews were merged into the Virtuoso film - it is so long ago that I can't remember.)

* I now read that JPG bought one flat for JO and assisted the purchase of the other one by means of a loan.

[Richard Tarleton]

JO's agent

Brenda didn't hesitate to blame Ibbs and Tillett, at the time ruled by Emmie Tillett, the "Duchess of Wigmore Street". Perhaps there's more in the recent biography. This is interesting - they were concert agents not personal managers - not a subject I know much about. Incidentally Ibbs and Tillett also handled Ashkenazy, they were pretty ubiquitous at the time......

[Pianorak]

Brenda didn't hesitate to blame Ibbs and Tillett, at the time ruled by Emmie Tillett, the "Duchess of Wigmore Street". Perhaps there's more in the recent biography. This is interesting

At £175 rather too much. Shura Cherkassky, who was very fond of Emmie Tillett, would be livid to see his name misspelt as Cherkassy in the index.

[pastoralguy]

I was lucky enough to see John Ogdon back in circa. 1987 with the (R)SNO under Neemi Jarvi. I remember it was a 'back to front' concert with Tchaikovsky 4 in the first half, JO playing Gershwin's concerto then the Weber Oberon overture. My teacher played in the orchestra and I went through to Glasgow for the rehearsal and afternoon concert and I was lucky enough to talk to JO in the interval of the rehearsal. I asked him if he had played the Gershwin before and he replied he only played it once before with a London youth orchestra. I remember he played it from the music and he got really annoyed with his page turner in the concert!

He was lovely to talk to and seemed really pleased when I told him I'd enjoyed his playing. I didn't know the piece at all so I bought a record ASAP afterwards and it's been a favourite since. JO just seemed such a nice man although I was curious why, as he sat in a corner of the band room, no one in the orchestra seemed to want to talk to him. I wonder why.

I also remember Jarvi giving the first violins a miss cue at the end of the second movt. of the Tchaikovsky and there were a few solos as some followed him and others ignored him! I remember the audience and players laughing at the mistake.


Nice memories.

[Richard Tarleton]

At £175 rather too much.

?? - says £29.95 on my screen.

I wasn't suggesting buying it, I just meant the article was interesting - I was trying to find out more, in the light of Brenda's comments.

[ardcarp]

Did you think it looked like Karajan conducting?

It didn't occur to me to look...except he had a rather long stick! Unfortunately I didn't record the programme. It didn't look to be an especially suave conducting style...and Herbert was nothing if not suave. I wondered if the Tchaik competition had that unusual layout of pianist on stage/orchestra in pit?

[clive heath]

I was at a dance at Stonar (all girls) school in the 50's when the band had to give way to a solo from (a freshly returned from London) Brenda Lucas to show the talent that had just earned her a place at whichever prestigious establishment. It was OK but I was young and it may have been very good indeed!

You will find the only available version* of John Ogdon's prom performance in Turangalila here

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/tapes.php

Messiaen, Turangalila Symphony
BBC Symphony Orchestra conducted by Charles Groves with John Ogdon (Piano) and Jeanne Loriod (Ondes Martenot)
Broadcast from the Albert Hall, Wednesday 6 August 1969

apologies to those of you who have been made aware of this before.

*as far as I know

[Op. XXXIX]

Indeed. But it wasn't mere "sight reading" as that term is generally understood - i.e. the ability to play the score on first reading at the piano - but a facility to "perform" works at first sight in the sense of his seemingly being able to make almost instant interpretative decisions about them whereas even most good "sight readers" would not expect to be capable of that. I can attest to this having worked with him in the 1980s. He had a photographic memory of the kind that I've never encountered elsewhere.

With due respect, I have quoted you on another forum when the subject of Ogdon's sight reading came up.

The new bio will be my next read. Thank-you for your contribution.

[Pianorak]

?? - says £29.95 on my screen.

I wasn't suggesting buying it, I just meant the article was interesting - I was trying to find out more, in the light of Brenda's comments.

Lucky you! The price is shown on Amazon with Invisible Hand quoting £1,349.99! I didn't mean to imply you suggested buying it. The article was indeed very interesting. Thanks.

[mercia]

a very small point but I'm not sure that the work being played with the orchestra in the pit is the Franck SV - though just at the moment I can't think what it is

[Nick Armstrong]

a very small point but I'm not sure that the work being played with the orchestra in the pit is the Franck SV - though just at the moment I can't think what it is

AH! you know why I think it is though, don't you? (Empty, banal showpiece, mysteriously popular in the 50s and 60s.... the only other thing I can think of would be one of Liszt's pieces, one of the concertos or some other concertante work.... )

[Richard Tarleton]

the only other thing I can think of would be one of Liszt's pieces, one of the concertos or some other concertante work.... )

Oi! What are you calling empty banal showpieces (we've been here before ) - It's neither of Liszt's concertos, nor Totentantz...the remainder of Liszt's (few) orchestral piano works are mostly orchestral paraphrases of works by other composers. Are you sure it's not by Rachmaninov?