Does it matter what opera singers look like?

[Dave2002]

fhg

I agree about the height thing. I'm over 6ft, and occasionally I look admiringly upwards at ladies who are taller than I am - but not often. Even the same height is quite a thrill! It doesn't have to be a general rule.

[Mary Chambers]

Can it be that the problems are entirely those of the members of the audience who expect Opera to conform to ideas of "beauty" originating more from Hollywood than from their own experience?

I certainly don't want opera singers to conform to 'ideals of beauty' (which in my case would come from ballet, not from Hollywood), but I do want them to look more or less appropriate for their roles. I watched the Glyndebourne documentary on BBC4 last night, and I'm afraid I still think Octavian looked quite wrong. All the others looked fine. It was a pity, because she sang very well, but I don't go to opera to listen with my eyes closed.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I certainly don't want opera singers to conform to 'ideals of beauty' (which in my case would come from ballet, not from Hollywood), but I do want them to look more or less appropriate for their roles. I watched the Glyndebourne documentary on BBC4 last night, and I'm afraid I still think Octavian looked quite wrong. All the others looked fine.

But why, Mary? In what way(s) did this singer not "look more or less appropriate" to the role of Octavian?

[Mary Chambers]

But why, Mary? In what way(s) did this singer not "look more or less appropriate" to the role of Octavian?

Simply too curvy! She didn't look even remotely like a boy. She doesn't look androgynous, which I think would be the ideal, better than very masculine. She looks like a girl, a woman, which is no doubt not a problem to her in everyday life, but would limit her casting in trouser roles if I was in charge - which I'm not, so that's all right.

I am not intending anything insulting or personal, but just being honest about my reaction. I think she was miscast.

[mercia]

did Hofmannsthal indicate that Octavian should be a trouser role or was it purely Strauss's idea do we know? However uncurvy we're never going to be in any doubt of her real gender so why pretend, would be my thought.

[Flosshilde]

Not sure why/if this is "more to the point", Dave (and taking your "perhaps" into consideration); lots of men are "somewhat shorter" than their partners.

In a theatrical context shorter actors & singers usually wear stacked heels to increase their height, don't they?

[Dave2002]

I certainly don't want opera singers to conform to 'ideals of beauty' (which in my case would come from ballet, not from Hollywood), but I do want them to look more or less appropriate for their roles. I watched the Glyndebourne documentary on BBC4 last night, and I'm afraid I still think Octavian looked quite wrong. All the others looked fine. It was a pity, because she sang very well, but I don't go to opera to listen with my eyes closed.

Maybe, but isn't that particular opera riddled with conundrums. Surely we're not meant to be judging it by the "standards" of real life - that would knock out 95% or more of most operas. We are meant to know that it's a woman, playing a man, then a woman playing a man pretending to be a woman, and it's another joke that Baron Ochs gets confused.

Hint - Most dramatic "entertainment" is not real, and most actors are not "real" people, nor are the places such as Ambridge or Coronation Street which they inhabit in some genres real either.

Of course, the height thing could just be another joke - though I'm not sure if Strauss and his collaborators specified that. Re going to opera to listen with one's eyes closed, a few of last year's performances at Glyndebourne were arguably better that way - Ariadne auf Naxos and the Rameau in the fridge/freezer. That last one also confused me, as I thought the second part was taking place in some trendy modernistic set of apartments, which just happened to have round windows. It wasn't until a long while later - even after the sailors appeared (why on earth ...?) that the penny dropped that it was supposed to be Neptune or Poseidon's yacht.

[amateur51]

Simply too curvy! She didn't look even remotely like a boy.

I resemble that remark, Mary! I was quite popular with certain individuals in the changing room at my all-boys grammar school on account of my curvaceous nature

Too much information perhaps?

[Mary Chambers]

Maybe, but isn't that particular opera riddled with conundrums. Surely we're not meant to be judging it by the "standards" of real life - that would knock out 95% or more of most operas. We are meant to know that it's a woman, playing a man, then a woman playing a man pretending to be a woman, and it's another joke that Baron Ochs gets confused.

Hint - Most dramatic "entertainment" is not real, and most actors are not "real" people, nor are the places such as Ambridge or Coronation Street which they inhabit in some genres real either.

I know it's not real.

Of course we're supposed to know it's a woman, but I feel there should be a slight feeling (for the audience) of confusion about sexual/gender identity in this opera, and this casting removed that. It was just too obvious. I know it's a comedy, but I don't think it's a farce.

I admit the visual element of opera - or any form of theatre - is important to me, though it seems others feel differently. If it's not important, why are we bothering to watch rather than just listen to a recording?

[visualnickmos]

I resemble that remark, Mary! I was quite popular with certain individuals in the changing room at my all-boys grammar school on account of my curvaceous nature

Too much information perhaps?

Initially, 'yes' - now 'nowhere near enough!' (only joking in case anyone takes me too literally.....)

[Mary Chambers]

I resemble that remark, Mary! I was quite popular with certain individuals in the changing room at my all-boys grammar school on account of my curvaceous nature

Too much information perhaps?

I bet you don't look a bit like a certain mezzo-soprano

[Dave2002]

I admit the visual element of opera - or any form of theatre - is important to me, though it seems others feel differently. If it's not important, why are we bothering to watch rather than just listen to a recording?

Whatever its faults, whether we can agree on them or not, I enjoyed the Glyndebourne production much more than simply listening to the music. I've not seen the TV programme yet - put it on to record while we went out. This was one opera where the whole was better than the sum of its parts, another (for me - by a long way) being Wozzeck at the ROH several years back - with the fish tank and breathing tube.

[amateur51]

I bet you don't look a bit like a certain mezzo-soprano

Not without access to her ROH dressing-up box

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Simply too curvy! She didn't look even remotely like a boy. She doesn't look androgynous, which I think would be the ideal, better than very masculine. She looks like a girl, a woman, which is no doubt not a problem to her in everyday life, but would limit her casting in trouser roles if I was in charge - which I'm not, so that's all right.

Fair comment.

I am not intending anything insulting or personal, but just being honest about my reaction. I think she was miscast.

No, I didn't think you were - I was genuinely asking what made you arrive at your opinion - your reply here covers it perfectly well.

[Flosshilde]

did Hofmannsthal indicate that Octavian should be a trouser role or was it purely Strauss's idea [do we know?] ? however uncurvy we're never going to be in any doubt of her real gender so why pretend, would be my thought.

We're not going to be in doubt about the gender of the singer because we know that the role is sung by a woman, & it's a high voice (too high even for counter tenors?). But we know that the character is a boy, so that's what we believe we are seeing on the stage - after all, all theatre is a pretence; we know that we aren't seeing the real wife of the governor of Vienna, but a singer pretending to be her. But why make that pretence so much more difficult by casting someone who doesn't look right for the role?