Having seen the photos it is clear that this Octavian is not physically repulsive. I see no reason why a woman well past her sell by date (ie the Marschallin; not Kate Royal ) might not find this Octavian attractive. Ok she's short. But wasn't there a time when Dudley Moore was an international sex symbol? Notwithstanding, there is often no accounting for the type of man women find themselves attracted to: think Anna Nicole Smith and J. Howard Marshall).
Does it matter what opera singers look like?
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Originally posted by jean View PostI give you Denis O'Neil, again. I don't rmember ever seeing him condemned for his lack of height - or any other man, for that matter.
Besides, I thought most singers, or any performers for that matter, usually declare that they take no notice of what critics and reviewers say. So why all this fuss? It looks to me as if they are grabbing an opportunity to take their revenge.
Incidentally, I find Hansel and Gretel (the opera, not any pantomime) quite unwatchable for this very reason.
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If you say something about a woman singer's appearance that you wouldn't say about a man's, that's sexist. My point was that I have never heard of a male singer being judged unsuitable for his lack of stature.
This case is complicated by the fact that few women, however approvedly slim they may be, have a male bodily shape, but except in pantomime, men are never required to represent women on stage. Didn't the castrati develop shapes rather different from those of the unmodified male? Were they criticised on the basis of that?
But talk of 'taking revenge' seems very unfair, as I don't think te singer concerned has said anything at all.
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Richard Tarleton
Originally posted by Mary Chambers View PostPerhaps not by critics, but definitely by audiences!
I'd have to agree with that. It somehow helped seeing him in small theatres (as I did many times in the Grand Swansea and New, Cardiff). A very fine tenor. He did a recital in Milford Haven with the excellent lady accompanist who used to do Cardiff Singer of the World, and who is quite tall - fortunately she wore very flat shoes though there was an unseemly snigger from somewhere near me as they walked on.
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Originally posted by jean View PostIf you say something about a woman singer's appearance that you wouldn't say about a man's, that's sexist. My point was that I have never heard of a male singer being judged unsuitable for his lack of stature.
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Originally posted by Richard Tarleton View PostJust caught an interview with Dame Kiri on Today
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Originally posted by doversoul View PostI don’t think any of these reviewers ‘condemned’ this singer. Aren’t they all saying how good she is as a singer? She wasn’t described as anything like ‘fat and ugly with bulging eyes and too big a mouth’ or anything of that sort. I think casting of a young male / boy character in opera is always problematic and producers should take particular care. When not one but several reviewers all noticed the ‘unsuitableness’ of the singer’s appearance, there is obviously a problem. I don’t see anything sexist about their comments.
Besides, I thought most singers, or any performers for that matter, usually declare that they take no notice of what critics and reviewers say. So why all this fuss? It looks to me as if they are grabbing an opportunity to take their revenge.
Incidentally, I find Hansel and Gretel (the opera, not any pantomime) quite unwatchable for this very reason.
I think part of the problem was that almost all the male critics chose to describe her in similarly derogatory terms and paid fare more attention to her lack of height and 'dumpiness' than her singing (one of them, having spent a paragraph decrying her physical unsuitability, only grudgingly referred to the musical side of her performance in just three words: "albeit well sung"). If it had been just one critic, it might have passed without notice, but when almost all the male critics referred to a young and talented singer so disparagingly, it was bound to create a backlash."I do not approve of anything that tampers with natural ignorance. Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone. The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound. Fortunately in England, at any rate, education produces no effect whatsoever. If it did, it would prove a serious danger to the upper classes, and probably lead to acts of violence in Grosvenor Square."
Lady Bracknell The importance of Being Earnest
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Roehre
Originally posted by mercia View Postis Octavian described in the stage directions ? [I don't know Rosenkavalier]- is he supposed to be masculine-looking ?
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thanks.
Why do we think that Strauss made it a mezzo role - just to emphasise his youth ? Or to create some sort of sexual-ambiguity-subtext-thing. Or just following a long tradition of theatrical crossdressing for the humourous potential....... or other reasons ..Last edited by mercia; 23-05-14, 14:38.
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Originally posted by gradus View PostI really don't get this appearance rubbish. Its music not a beauty pageant.
And as LHC alludes to, its still absolutely fine to be critical of people / performers/composers/ whoever on the grounds of their height.
Just ask Katie Derham, for instance, who thinks that kind of prejudice is just fine , even when broadcast.
Just as well the lady in question isn't a red head too, because its always open season on them .I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
I am not a number, I am a free man.
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Originally posted by jean View PostIf you say something about a woman singer's appearance that you wouldn't say about a man's, that's sexist. My point was that I have never heard of a male singer being judged unsuitable for his lack of stature.
This case is complicated by the fact that few women, however approvedly slim they may be, have a male bodily shape, but except in pantomime, men are never required to represent women on stage. Didn't the castrati develop shapes rather different from those of the unmodified male? Were they criticised on the basis of that?
But talk of 'taking revenge' seems very unfair, as I don't think te singer concerned has said anything at all.
It isn’t the most important thing for the singer to look like a real man or boy. Many mature mezzo sopranos have played Sesto in Julius Caesar, for example, very successfully. It is all depends on (as has been mentioned somewhere up-thread) how the singer is presented (makeup, costume etc.) and how well she is coached in acting.
If men are never asked to play women seriously on stage while women are always playing men, well, I call that sexist . However, that is no longer the case. Here are a couple of examples (admittedly, this is still a rare thing)
Stefano Landi's Il Sant' Alessio
Concert performance on stage
Max Emanuel Cencic and Xavier Sabata had some of the most affecting scenes as his wife and mother respectively,
DVD
There is fine singing from Max Emanuel Cencic and Xavier Sabata as Alessio's wife and mother
Benjamin Lazar's production stays just the right side of both camp and morbidity. An acquired taste, but beautifully done
Leonardo Vinci: Artaserse
…five of the world’s leading countertenors – assuming both male and female roles
Vinci, Leonardo: Artaserse. Erato: 2564632323. Buy 2 DVD Videos online. Philippe Jaroussky (Artaserse), Max Emanuel Cencic (Mandane), Franco Fagioli (Arbace), Valer Barna-Sabadus (Semira), Yuriy Mynenko (Megabise), Juan Sancho (Artabano) Concerto Köln & Coro della Radiotelevisione Svizzera, Diego Fasolis
not an opera but what do you think of him (the video has an English commentary)?
As for castrati, there are caricatures showing odd shaped bodies of those opera superstars but I imagine London audience just accepted that that was how castrati were.
By taking revenge, I meant those (many are singers, I imagine) who voiced their protest. I don’t blame them.
If you don’t believe in staged opera performance (with Baroque opera, I don’t most of the time), then talk about appearance is irrelevant. But when you pay to go and see it, of course it matters very much.
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